Real Separation Stories - Michelle Hoskin

In this episode Tamsin is joined by Michelle Hoskin. Something a little different in that Michelle and her partner Martin weren't married but they did have a daughter together and share a family home. Michelle talks about the importance to her of starting with the end in mind, which in this case was remaining friends.

Director of Financial Planning and Chartered Financial Planner Tamsin Caine has a strong background of over 15 years within the financial services profession. She began Smart Divorce following her own experience with divorce; she now advises people in the same situation as she once was, enabling them to take back control of their life and finances. Smart Divorce website is www.smartdivorce.co.uk. If you need any help with sorting your finances out during your divorce, please drop Tamsin an email to tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk

Transcript

(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)

Tamsin Caine 0:06
Hello and welcome to the smart divorce podcast. This podcast is for you if you're thinking of separating already separated or going through divorce. My name is Tamsin Caine and I'm a Chartered Financial Planner will speak to some fantastic specialists who can help you to get through your divorce hopefully amicably and start your new chapter positively. Now over to today's guest I'm delighted to be joined this afternoon by my friend Michelle Hoskin. Hi Michelle! Hello, how are you?

Michelle Hoskin 0:41
Fabulous. I'm really I'm glad. I'm quite excited about this, because I'm quite excited to sort of recall my story that got all excited, I got the questions through. The thing is I get to talk about the in with time path. So, you know, it's quite, it's quite nice to have the option to do that. So thank you for asking me. That's my absolute pleasure. And so do you want to start by introducing yourself?

Tamsin Caine 1:09
I'll let you do that.

Michelle Hoskin 1:11
Yeah. So as Thompson's introduced, I'm Michelle, I have a daughter. And while I'm a busy professional, coaching and consultants, I operate in the financial services sector. I have a daughter who is Ruby, and who is nine, we live together in our little girl party in Hitchin in hartfordshire. And busy life and you know, obviously, being in lockdown thrown it some challenges our way, we have regular meltdowns, and so many of the best people are having their mini meltdown. And yeah, so I'm happy to share my story.

Tamsin Caine 1:47
Fantastic. So your story's slightly different from some of the other guests that we've had on the podcast, because you weren't actually married. Now, is that right? That's so we're talking from a cohabitation point, which is getting increasingly is going to be the work that that we're involved in. And there's also the work that family lawyers get involved in, because it's actually even more complicated than, than if you married than if you're divorcing? Because there's this myth about common law, husband and wife's, and it just doesn't exist. So how long ago did you go through your separation?

Michelle Hoskin 2:35
So keep that. So I was I was with Martin for 14 years, when I just sort of got to the point that it just won't, it just wasn't working. And I was able to sort of think about my future life. And you know, as a coach, you know, I was I was always very tuned in to the fact that I wanted a life that made me happy, and all the rest of it. So this was this started really emerged in about 2013, when I first started having doubts about my relationship, and how happy I was, so, you know, it's sometime but that's still very, you know, fresh and real, because Martin and I are still friends. And actually, in the business that I have Martin is actually in the business with me that we actually still work together in the business that we set up together. And when we weren't together,

Tamsin Caine 3:26
there's a few instances that I've come across if if that happening if couples who used to be together continuing to work together, and it seems to, in all the instances that I know, it seems to work quite well. Although if you read the press, you would assume that as soon as this blow up from somebody, you attack as Ah, yeah. Yeah, it's good to hear. So could you tell us your story from from the point that you Martin separated?

Michelle Hoskin 3:57
Yeah, absolutely. So it was in about the September that I was. So it kicked off in June. So june of 2013. And I had made the decision, you know, it wasn't working. So we, you know, from about the June to the September, October, I gave it lots of thought and kind of ways weighed up all the pros and the cons and you know, as you do over thought it overanalyze, name it, I did it. But in the sort of September, October time, I remember putting them to bed one night, and obviously, she was significantly younger, and walking down the stairs and saying to Martin, we need to talk. And his first response to me was, please don't leave me. This is what you said to me. And I said, I'm not gonna leave you I said, but we need to talk. And effectively by the December of the following year, and Martin had moved out, and the process that we kind of went through from September to The following December, which was just over a year was probably the most important and most stressful. Well, what was effectively 15 months of my life ever with catastrophic impact. But we, we dealt with it. And honestly, that's, that's the story. So it was what basically happened was I Martin and I were were the bestest of friends before we got together. And one of the things that I remember thinking through all my time of analysing the situation and how to go about it, and and was that we started as friends. Before we, you know, slumped in the back of a bar somewhere in Richmond story. You know, we started as friends, we, I was I was, I was determined that we ended that way. So what was very much in my mind throughout the whole time I was I was leading on this change, which Martin never saw come in, not anywhere near. But I knew that I had the end in mind. And I my only sole driver was we had to, we had to stay friends. It was essential. And it was the thing that I kind of nailed to the gatepost. So the October was, when I kind of raised it with Martin, and with those loads of tears, the beauty of our relationship was the fact that there wasn't anybody involved, I hadn't had an affair, I've not had not gone down the kind of route of having that reason, or finding another person to make this an easier or more difficult transaction or transfer, a transition. So it was very, it was pretty straightforward. It was, I just don't love you anymore in the way that I should, if we're going to have the rest of our lives together. And there was lots of upset and lots of tears. And we just, you know, in the November, I then moved out of the kind of joint bedroom, I moved into the spare room, I made that decision to move into the spare room because it was my decision to effectively end the relationship. And then we live together for a year, but too much just over a year. And then, you know, I helped Martin move out by finding them somewhere to live and kicking out the flat and making sure that, you know, he, he was he was secure and happy and safe. Because I've been doing much the the lead in the relationship and I was the breadwinner, effectively an iron on the money. So I knew that I couldn't just abandon that and and go Well, I'm not happy about this, I'm not happy, you know, figure it out. I knew that that would be brutally unfair of me to do that. So the 15 months from raising the situation with him right through to him moving out with me very much leading on that journey and supporting him emotionally and physically, through that transition. And, and it was it was it was extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. So we got through it because I started with the end in mind, which was whatever happens by hook or by crook, we are ending as we started which was as friends. And that drove me through the whole 15 months on it and probably

Tamsin Caine 8:18
Yeah, it's really important. Was the, the stain friends part important to you? As a person as as to people who started as friends? Or do you think it was more driven by your being parents of Ruby?

Michelle Hoskin 8:35
It was though, that the one of the things that because we didn't have there wasn't anybody else involved. There was no reason not to be friends. So that might my thinking was if I handled the situation properly and fairly and kindly. You know, I knew I had to be kind and I knew I had to care for Martin. I cared for him. You know, we were we were we were like brother and sister. But we weren't. We weren't in love. You know, we weren't there was no last in our relationship. But me anyway. So I think the thing I needed to be kind and I still cared for Martin. So because there was no betrayal and there was no sort of nastiness involved and no bitterness. It was easy to try and stay friends, if that makes sense. So it was there was no reason not to be friends. But it was, it was me. I cared for Martin as a person. He did nothing wrong. He just we're just going to put our bottom line. But I knew that in the future, how we brought Rubio I wanted me and him to go to the school play and go to parents evening as friends. And I never and in the whole time times in Ruby, never ever ever witness an argument. Not one, not one. And in fact, she's probably witness more arguments after they're separated. And we had one a week ago because it was being Do you know given time, right, you get stuck in front of the iPad because he was working. And he needed to homeschooler without more arguments, since she never ever saw an argument, because I needed her to know that we were friends. And that was really important, important to both of us. In fact, and, and I remember one of the lines, you know, in explaining to Ruby what was going on, and bearing in mind, Ruby was, what, three, four at the time. And I said to her, you know, you know how princesses and princes love each other in Disney movies, Ruby. Well, I loved that day, but just not as a prince and a princess. We just don't know each other that way. And she got it straight away. Straight away. The best thing that ever came out of my mouth back in that whole time was explaining it to Ruby like that, because she got it straight away.

Tamsin Caine 10:50
Was it What was the emotional journey? like for you? Was it always pretty much a straight line? Or was it? Did you find that same roller coaster that the other talked about?

Michelle Hoskin 11:05
Well, I'll get to put it into perspective, the worst that ever got was I nearly drove on purpose my car into the central reservation of them one man's way. So that just gives you an idea of how bad it got. And that was that interestingly, that wasn't because of Martin. That was because not only for me, and not for me, and Martin was fine mine and Martin's relationship throughout the whole time was pretty much on an even keel. Because Martin's very laid back, very relaxed. One of the reasons I can't be with him as a boyfriend and a girlfriend in partnership, because it drives me nuts because it's almost horizontal, right? And I'm totally not that way at all. But actually, it was that quality in him that kept you on an equal and even keel all the way through. Because he wasn't Valentine. He didn't raise his voice. He didn't get angry. The problem was everybody else. So his family was fine with me. My family pretty much rejected me, all of them. And I mean, all of them. My grandma, my own tears. My cousin, my mom, my dad, my brother, even said to me one night during the whole time, he didn't have to deal with it. Michelle, this is not our problem. At which point I just broke down. And it was that night, driving back from Nottingham that I needed drove I actually mainly thought about driving my car into the central reservation. Because not only did I lose a relationship and a family unit, I had no support from my family whatsoever. I don't know why I still don't know why to this day. But it was big. I don't know. But I remember literally driving down the motorway holding my own hands in my lap. And all I could say to myself was I've got you, Michelle, I've got you. Because all I had was myself. And even my family members were more supportive of Martin because he was the little boy last kind of by but it was going on with him. And there's me Mrs forthright getting cheated on. And they also decide, and I was left to basically fend for myself, and keep it all together. So it was rendus surrender.

Tamsin Caine 13:13
That's gotta be hard. Did you? Did you seek any professional help? I know, this is something that that we've mentioned on podcast before. Because it tends to be something that we shy away from in the UK or probably don't shy away from but don't tell anybody if we are doing

Michelle Hoskin 13:33
well, one of them is obviously doing what I do. Because obviously I coach financial advisors, which is how I know you, right? I think one of the things that I did was I found myself having different people that I sought counsel from, so I had girlfriends who were moms who I knew I you know, I took some emotional support from I had friends from school who I I kind of took some, you know, you can do it. You're strong. Michelle, you've always been strong from the age of nine kind of, you know, support. I had financial advisors who would talk to me about money, because they were my friends and my clients. So what I found what I did the only the only advice that I ever really sought was I went to see a lawyer for one session, because I got wind my my mom, that Martin's parents were talking in the way of, well, if she ever tries to get Ruby out of the country, we'll we'll fight her for it. And I and I, and my mom told me this, this was kind of a second third hand conversation. So I do seek legal advice. Because Because of my work and the fact that I can travel and travel all around the world. One of the one of the conversations that I'd had loosely with Martin was well, you know, why don't we Why don't we we're still friends. Why don't we travel and why don't we in the business together that we Hartsdale, why don't we go and live somewhere else. And, you know, as friends, you live in one flat and I live in another room, we, we don't want an adventure. That's crazy the conversations with Darwin, but his, his parents told my mom, that they would fight me legally, if I ever tried to take me out of the country. I then went to see a lawyer and the lawyer when when it confirmed and then got flippin chance in hell the fight in you because you can do what you want with your daughter. They have got no case. So I effectively sought counsel from lots of different people. And I always say when I tell my story to financial advisors, which is why I was dead happy to do this podcast with you is, what would have been amazing is if I could have one person, like have my financial advisor, and at the time, I didn't know anyone that did it. That could have advised me on the emotional side, the legal side, the money signs, because because what happened was with me having lots of different conversations with lots of different people, everybody was giving me their two penneth worth of their advice. And I had to then dismantle, and then put back together all the bits of advice had been given. And that was half of my problem. Because it was pretty Yeah, it was it was it was difficult for me to then. So I just wish I wish I'd have had to you who I could have gone right handed. I'm doing this financially, I've got some legal stuff I'm not sure about. I didn't have a one person. And I wish I had. Because every time I saw that all those different people, I had to update them on what was going on. And that was emotionally draining emotionally rather than if either you are the only really I've ever spoken openly to you, with other people getting bits of information, but not needing regular updates as the drama unfolded. Make sense?

Tamsin Caine 16:56
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so when you and Martin separated, you obviously had various things to sort out. So financial things. business together, you had Ruby together? How did you go about negotiating sensible settlements? For want of a better word? No, it's not quite because not divorce? It's not really. So let's use the word settlement. Because after Brad understands it, how did you go about negotiating how things would work out?

Michelle Hoskin 17:33
Well, one 100%, the first thing I did was I needed to understand my audience, right, I needed to understand the person I was going to be negotiating with. And I knew Martin, because I've lived with him for so long. We've been together before we were boyfriend and girlfriend effectively. I knew him better than he knew himself. So I knew so I could have I could have taken into the cleaners and he probably would have let me, right. But I'm not that person. Because he was so vulnerable. And so trusting of me, the only way I went about it that I knew how to do it was I needed to present him a plan fully mapped out with financials involved with a flat, where he was going to live, even the location where he was going to live, how he was going to manage Ruby, when Ruby went to school, I mapped the whole thing out within an inch of its life. One that plays to my strengths. But if I had gone into a negotiation with Martin or a settlement plan, without with Martin without a plan, I was going in and I was expecting Martin to come up with a plan or some suggestions, it never come up with a suggestion in his life. So why on earth would I think that he could all of a sudden, miraculously come up with a second plan. When I did all the planning in our life and our relationship, which is one of the reasons it didn't work out. Right? So I knew I knew who my audience was. And I say this to Martin. Now. The reason the plan went to plan is because I knew him better than he knew himself and I was kind. So there was no, there was no way we go, we're gonna need to leave that he didn't he didn't need to move out in December. He had no capacity to plan where to live, and even move himself out. In me know, I knew who I was dealing with Tamsin and I, and I was luckily for Martin I was kind of absolutely annihilated them. And it led me honestly, for I had the plan and I and that we executed that plan step by step exactly how it was written. And I was kind

Tamsin Caine 19:41
and there's three anything that looking back now, is there anything that you would have done differently about that plan?

Michelle Hoskin 19:47
Probably only maybe accelerated swell. Yeah, I would. I did maps into the plan, dealing with those that were Martin, I had no element of my plan that had my family involved, or his family involved. I didn't plan how I was going to communicate the plan or the situation to my family. I focus so heavily on martin as my immediate concern that I never gave anybody else. And really honestly, I never gave anybody else any second thought, because I just assumed that they'd be on my side. How long that was. Right. So you're almost need to have a plan, which includes all other interested parties, and I just never give them the thought, honestly. Well, the biggest stresses and upset and trauma and drama came outside of the plan, ie my family. They gave me so much trouble wanting gave me known his family gave me known, my family gave me pretty much at all. And that sounds terrible, but it's absolutely true.

Tamsin Caine 21:02
It's true. Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to another lady a couple of weeks ago, who's been through divorce, and her divorce was relatively straightforward. But the biggest problem that she had was with their friends, in fact, so do as a group of five friends. And she sent them all a WhatsApp message. And two of them said, right, we're on our way around with a bottle of vodka. And the others didn't understand much. And suggested that she hadn't worked hard enough for our relationship. I

Michelle Hoskin 21:36
know. It's brutal. It just the point is in the plan, is you have to plan for all eventualities. And you know, part part of, you know, part of your job as a planner is to help with that planning. And maybe if I had gone and sought professional help, that did go on, and what about your family? What is that? How are they going to take it? Another gone? Oh, no, support me, and then they run it. But what if they don't? And then I'd have thought I'd have been forced to think about the plan. And the fallout from me breaking the news to them. I just, I just got so wrapped up in the immediate interested parties. I Ruby and Martin, I never gave anybody else a second thought. And it was to my detriment, because I nearly flippin drove my car into the office, either the one to decide. To me, it was that bad. And I cried the whole way home. So bad, but just any other any other thing? I mean, I mean, even now, I mean, you know, I'm sort of semi dating again. And even now, like, you know, the diet, you know, the guy I'm dating is a financial advisor, which for all the reasons you'll understand is breaking me, because because Pillow Talk is quite interesting, right? Because I don't want I never wanted to date a financial advisor, but I appear to be dating the financial advisor in lockdown. But what's interesting is that, you know, even even he said to me the other day, you know, have you have you thought about going and seeing a therapist, because I think there's probably a lot of baggage that I've still got. And I was I think he's probably got a point, he probably has got a vested interest that you don't want any damaged goods like moving into his relationship with him. Because he I've known him a long time. So he knows the Martin story and the mark story. So he's been he's been through a mall with me as a friend. I think he's learning under false pretences. But that's another story for another podcast. But if you say to me, you know, do you think you should? You know, is it all gone? have you dealt with all of this, and probably the only thing I would say is, is to never underestimate the kind of the value and the power of a lifetime coach to kind of coach you through it, or life coaching, if that can come with financial planning even better, because I know lots of planners, you know, like you do the software stuff in the coaching side, too. But I never did that I kind of sought counsel from friends who just gave me their opinion. So I think that's probably the only thing that in hindsight, I wish I'd probably have done is had somebody focused on me emotionally, and my emotional frame of mind, because that was that was the hardest. That was the hardest thing, the money and the in the house and the dog and the Ruby was actually quite easy because when I started knowing that I needed to end as friends and I had a foolproof plan for my immediate interested parties. Because I don't analyse and overanalyze every possible scenario. It was the unexpected sideswiped me

Tamsin Caine 24:54
as a habit of doing that, and on the emotional support thing, I think As I said before, loads of people in the UK don't talk about seek professional emotional support. And it's, you know, it's a big thing in the States, isn't it? Everybody seems to have a therapist. But yeah, we don't. Well, lots of people do, but they don't. They don't. And, and, you know, they do some amazing work and they can, they can really help you to sort your head out, even if it's something that you've got weight, or you thought you'd got way past. And, you know, it's still, they still really, really valuable.

Michelle Hoskin 25:37
Is comes in, I think, you know, you know, you'll come across this all the time, you know, divorce separation is a temporary transition. But what's tricky about it, is that you're making life changing long term decisions with a temporary mindset. Right? Yeah. And that itself is brutal. Because you're not thinking straight, absolutely not thinking straight. So to have that critical friends, that sounding board is the balance that is essential. In that situation, you have to have it it's not it's almost not negotiation. And that's that's where I regret not having, I kind of only when it was I was past the situation did I realise how important the decisions I was making then were, I was making them was such a temporary mind frame. So frame of mind, they pass the feeling the emotion, they all pass, but I was making big shit decisions that affected Ruby, my life, Martin's life, everything, business. And it was all made with a temporary mindset. So that's why the critical friend thing is essential. absolutely essential. Yeah.

Tamsin Caine 26:59
So in terms of since since everything was resolved, with Barton, new moved on and started a new, a new chapter, and how is how is that separation changed your mindset towards your future? Not necessarily kind of emotional relationships bought? But as it has it changed the way you might go about moving in with somebody, for example?

Michelle Hoskin 27:29
Yeah, well, obviously, we're now you know, where we're sort of six years on. And, and obviously, I have, and this is why I actually responded to your initial kind of shout out the people who had been through this situation in the first place was because when he posted the message about, you know, for the podcast, I've literally just come out of another relationship that lasted five years. So I pretty much after about a year, went into another relationship. I didn't move in with this guy, but I then moved in a year or so later. And, and that relationship only ended at the end of January this year. And I've known this guy forever. So it wasn't like he was a stranger and I just went on a date. And it'll do. He was, I've got this. I've got the history repeating itself here like this. This is gonna all end in tears, right? Because, because, and again, I'm just glad I'm actually in lockdown, because I'm safer there. Right? Ultimately, I mean, apparently, I'm quite cute. So they keep popping out the bloody woodwork. Now they know that I'm single again. So here we are. Right. So so where we're at is, I think what it did do for me was the way that I handled Martin and the situation with Martin made me realise my strength. In truth. It made me realise how, how, how strong I was, and how resilient I was. So that, that learning about myself, I then took forward. But what it what it did make me though, was extremely independent. And and I think the reason that Mark and I, my relationship with Mark recently has not worked is because I was way too bolshie. And way too independent. And I can carry my own bag. Thank you very much. And I don't need a man and I don't need this. And that's because not because of my separation from Martin. But actually because of how my family dealt with me and rejected me. So for the period of pretty much two years, I was on my own. I had no family supporting me whatsoever. And that is that that naturally toughened me up, for sure. Because I only had me. So when I went into my relationship with Mark with Mark, I didn't need anybody because I hadn't needed anybody. So therefore, after five years, Mark was putting much surplus to requirements and he would always say to me, I know you don't need me. And I used to say to you if I want you, I know I don't need you. I own my own money. I can live on my own And then I can function quite happily Thank you very much.

Right? But with ended in the relationship, you know, for all its reasons has ended. Now interestingly, he's he the only way he could get out of the relationship with me Was he hadn't he had a relationship with somebody else and he didn't need to do that. However, I have what the answer to your question is, me and Ruby now live in I go part and I have no intention Tamsin, whatsoever. There's blue running through my veins of living with another man. Because whenever Ruby is dependent on me, my poor little daughter has been bounced around not bounced around lots of relationships, because ultimately, there was a dad and Mark, right. But when I told mark, when I told Reba that Mark and I were separated, and we lived with Mark, she her first words to me were mommy does that mean we can live on our own again, the first thing she said to me, and I said to her 100% Ruby, we knew we're gonna have a girl pad. And, and, you know, when I when I ventured back into the world of dating, and all that I want to go on weekends away, and I want to go on dates and stay over in someone's lovely house. But I don't want to play wifey again. I've done it. And I'm 42 years old and an independent and I love my life. And I love my kind of kind of solo living. And I think the secondary move in with somebody physically living with somebody for me, that I know that changes, because I because I give, I want to play mom and I want to play wife and I want to, you know, pick the, you know, cook their dinner. But actually, the decision I've made is that that's not the life that I want. And honestly, I've also thought that that's not the life that suits me, either. It just doesn't, I'm too. I'm too I'm too, me to kind of go back into play and why it just doesn't suit me. So I tried it twice. It's not work. So I'm now trying the new way. And the guy that sort of on the scene at the moment, he's got his house, he's got his grown up children, he plays golf, he watches the cricket, he is a busy professional with his own business, as I'm I am I think, you know, already, it's got signs of it working way better than the two I've had before. Because I can't help for becoming mom again. Like, I like to look after people and say house. So I tend to sort of, I tend to lose myself in that a bit more. You know, as good as women do. Generally, I think it's a common thing, we you know, we fall back into play and mom and we lose ourselves in play in life. And I don't want to do that again. I don't want to do that again. So it has changed me for sure. And I'm very much a person who soaks up the vibes of the people around me. And Martin wasn't good for me for lots of reasons in that he wasn't the most motivated person. So it made me almost live like I was on speed because I felt like I was having to be doing the effort of two people. And Mark, you know, I soaked up Mark was very negative. He was public sector worked in the fire brigade. So it was very kind of, he was a bit like, negative and a bit doom and gloomy and there was always a bad side to everything. And that's that plays off me because it changed who I was. And I remember, you know, around the time that you and I were messaging to do this podcast, you know, I break down after break down crying and shower, because I realised that how it how market changed me. And how I almost lost myself again, in being somebody that wasn't me. And my my breaking down in the shower and in the kitchen. And while I was cooking dinner. Luckily Ruby wasn't around that most of these times was because I realised that I'd had a lucky escape. And the life I really want to live is that of freedom and independence and, and you know, going on dates when I want to go on dates and when I'm asked out to dinner and and then you know I thought to somebody and it was actually I take the story very quickly. I was chatting to a my ex hairdresser who's gay, and he's been married. He's been married, too. He was married to a woman 30 years ago, like 13 years ago. Then he married a guy that he found out he was gay and then he married a guy. And then when I found him just as we were getting into lockdown. He said to me, You know, I was supposed to get married today and I went Nigel, when I said I'm not gay. You when you say it's not marriage, and I haven't even been married.

Anyway, he said, I need to give you a lesson. I'm thinking this could end in tears, right? today. He said you know what the trick is Michelle, he said, any relationship you're in, the guy that you're in a relationship with is not the cake. The cherry on the cake. And as soon as he said it, bingo, that was exactly what I need. What that's my life. That's what I want. I don't need someone in a relationship to be my cake. I have my cake, my house, my flat, my Ruby, my life, my gym, my team five transport company, I love my life, I've got my cake, I just want someone to put the cherry on the cake. And that's what my next relationship will be about. For me. I don't need someone to move into my house or move in with anybody else. But for the foreseeable future. And I'm happy about that.

Tamsin Caine 35:35
Fantastic. One last question before we call it a day. What piece of advice would you give to a friend who was in the early stages of separation?

Michelle Hoskin 35:46
Your armour on girl. Love it. That would be it. Because interestingly enough, it was my mom. When I told her I was separating from Martin that told me to get my armour on by and I didn't really realise she was saying it that I'd actually need that with all of my family. So get your armour on. Because Blimey, it's going to be a rocky road, and just expect absolutely anything from absolutely anyone. If you have any expectations of how people are going to react, deal with you deal with the situation, you're probably going to be wrong. just expect totally the unexpected. And then I think you'll be absolutely fine. And that's it and ride it out. Ride the storm because it will pass you'll feel like absolute shit at times, but just stick it out because it will pass and the sun will shine. And you'll just in your mind. That's why I'm sort of excited about doing this call because it's actually the first time I've really spoken about it openly since the drama of it all. And actually I'm happy Martinez Martin moved on. Martin moved on because we he was on damaged effectively from the process. He ended up with a girlfriend who was 16 years younger than him massive boobs, dead long legs. totally the opposite to me. So he was happy because we did get right and he wasn't able to effectively damage God.

Tamsin Caine 37:15
That's brilliant. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been it's been really great. Thank you for listening to the smart divorce podcast. If you'd like details of our guest today or of myself so you can get in touch. Please check out the programme notes. Many thanks. See you again soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai