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Helen Stuart
Helen has always advocated for good mental health, and vocalised the importance of ease of access to mental health support throughout her career. This has seen her working across community, outreach, counselling and domestic abuse prevention roles. Now Helen brings her wealth of knowledge, managerial experience through TLC: Talk, Listen, Change, and personal connections to mental health to drive Now You’re Talking’s success.
Helen is passionate about leading a socially responsible, business for good, enabling contributions to made back to TLC making the charity’s mission possible.
Samaritans
Mind
Campaign Against Living Miserably
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast. I am back again with the fabulous Helen Stuart. From now you're talking a bit of a different topic. I'm gonna start with the trigger warning at the very start. We are going to be talking about suicide today. If you've been impacted by suicide from people who are close to you friends, family, etc and please do reach out if you do need any help, and please be aware that you might find some of the topics that we talk about today difficult, but we are hopefully going to give you some help, advice of how to deal with with particularly children or teenagers, older children who are struggling. We find this a very important topic to cover, so I hope you'll bear with us and I hope that you find this a useful episode. I'm going to start by saying hello to Helen and just ask her to introduce herself briefly for those of you who haven't listened to the other couple of episodes that we've recorded together.
Tamsin Caine:
So, hi, Helen!
Helen Stuart:
hello, thank you so much, Tamsin. Yeah, so I'm Helen Stuart. I am Managing Director of Now You're Talking. We are a business that provides therapy to children, young people, adults, couples, with various different counsellors that can support with. That Really easy and accessible to find and you can rest assured that everybody that we work with are trusted and we've got the right qualifications to do with the job, whether that's working with your children, yourselves or as a couple.
Tamsin Caine:
Fantastic and it is an amazing service that you offer.
Tamsin Caine:
As I said, today we're talking about a massive topic and we're going to try and cover some aspects of it within the next sort of half hour 40 minutes, and it's not a long time to talk about something which is a huge, huge topic family, um over the last uh six months because, very sadly, my son's one of my son's best friends took his own life um earlier at the end of last year, um which we're still all dealing with. Um, he was a young person, 21 years old 22 years old and you know it's it's an incredibly hard thing to talk, to talk about, to think about, but it is a topic that I felt that it was important, whilst we were talking about the children angle of divorce, that we covered this topic. So it's not just about divorce, um, it impacts, it impacts many, many of us, but it is something that I wanted to uh to talk about today. So I guess the first thing is, if you can see that your child is suffering with anxiety or depression, what are the first things that we should do?
Helen Stuart:
Thank you, and thank you for sharing as well, because it's a really difficult topic and it's a really um, a hard thing to talk about. Um, I think as a parent, grandparent, friend, seeing the young person's struggle is really hard. Um, I talked about that, this particular generation that are kind of coming through at the moment. You know they are contending with a lot. There's a world that is quite scary. There is technologies arising that kind of you know can do so much in a good way, but also in a negative way. There is the era of social media and kind of finding all your information on there, but also this kind of never all your information on there, but also this kind of never switching off culture with young people as well. So you know, there was a time where you would go to school, you would come home and your day had ended and with a lot of young people. Now it doesn't end because you come home, you're on social media, you're on tiktok or whatever it is, you know, and it just, it just goes on. So I think, firstly, I think you know when, especially children, when they sort of enter kind of those teenage years, like you know, it's no um, no secret that they can be quite challenging. You know there's a lot of kind of uh changes going on so scientifically around kind of um, brain development and that sort of thing, but you know there are so many things that they're contending with, whether that is exams, friendships, relationships, you know all of those things kind of compound.
Helen Stuart:
Um, when we're starting to kind of see young people sort of being withdrawn, um, you know, a lot of the time I've talked about previously that can come out in many different forms that, whether that is anger, whether that is anxiety, whether that is anxiety, whether that is, you know, feeling down, feeling low, and I think a foundation for that is to have really open and honest conversations and make mental health a really open topic in the house as well, which is really really hard, especially as a parent.
Helen Stuart:
If you've done that before, you're then trying to pave a new way of being, you know, open about a topic and it can feel really really scary, um, so I think kind of opening up and you know, creating that environment will feel safe to be quite open about that um, which you know for some children like they really don't want to talk about it, and I get that, you know, and it's just, I think don't give up at the first sort of challenge that you might get back is that keep asking, because that could be, you know, the, the million dollar question that's needed that they finally open up and sort of want to have that question.
Helen Stuart:
So don't be afraid and you know it does feel a little bit vulnerable sometimes because it might mean that you might have to be open about yourself as well. You know, and I know we all want to kind of feel like this strong person for our children, but it's absolutely okay for your children to be alive, for them to see you, you know, have emotion, you know, and that's that's okay. Um, so I think that's where I would say that always just kind of start laying the foundations for those conversations
Tamsin Caine:
I think that's really good advice. And and also encouraging your children to talk openly with their friends about how they're feeling, to check in with their friends about how they're feeling and try and get them to open up. It's, it's got to be a really true thing that some of the people who are really struggling mentally don't necessarily walk around looking sad. You know they could. They could be some of the most cheerful people, happy people, contented people, brilliant people that that you know in your life. So you know, checking in on those people and trying to get them to open up about anything that might be going on in their world is vitally important.
Tamsin Caine:
I was told some time ago that it's really important to front up to, if you do think that there's any chance whatsoever that your child, friend, family member, et cetera is considering taking their own life, that you should use the word, that you should ask if they're considering suicide. You're nodding, so I'm assuming that I've got that bit right and it's all right. Asking and that's. You know, I get that. That's a sensible thing, but you can't ask. Obviously you're asking, hoping for a no, but you've got to know what to do with it if the answer is yes.
Helen Stuart:
Yeah.
Tamsin Caine:
So okay, we think we need to ask the question. Then what do we do if we get yes?
Helen Stuart:
I think it's really important and I think that you're absolutely right, I think, using the words have you thought about harming yourself? Have you thought about dying? Have you thought about taking your own life? You know it's a really scary place, you know, to ask those questions and I think you will probably or might be the first person to ask that person that question and you know with any question that you get asked sometimes and you think, gosh, I've never been asked that before. You know it can really stop people and just go. In fact, they've asked me um. So I think, firstly for you and it's you know, it takes a lot of courage to ask that question, because you're absolutely right that it's the answer that we are probably most terrified about. Um, I think when, if someone opens up to you and tells you that they are difficult in themselves, that they think they will be best placed if they work there, I think it's really important that we can hold that space for them and letting them know you are so grateful that they have felt able to be able to tell that to you, because that will feel like the biggest secret or biggest thought that they have had and it will be so overwhelming to be able to openly and say that you know could be, could be the the difference between whether they do or they don't. So, first of all, I think, really hold that space and, you know, allow the time to be able to sit and give them that space to kind of talk through that.
Helen Stuart:
I think there are lots of people with sort of suicidal ideation, or you know people that have thought about harming themselves. Kind of the advice is to go to A&E, which is a really important place to keep yourself safe. Go to A&E. But there are also some really great sanctuaries popping up at the moment. There was a couple locally that are offering sort of drop-ins, kind of self spaces for people to go along to if they feel unsafe. Now, these are different to A&E because, instead of waiting in an A&E waiting room and being waiting to be seen, you are given someone to talk to pretty much immediately and there is a space for them.
Helen Stuart:
So, before having those conversations, clearing yourself up with what are the options here, if this person is going to say, yes, I feel like I want to die or I want to hurt myself, what practical things can you give to them to basically say, well, this is what we're going to do, I think. Secondly, I think it's really important to tell someone you know, when they've said this, all the reasons why they shouldn't, and that's absolutely valid and I think that's really important. But you've got to understand that this person has come to a place where they feel like nothing is worth living for anymore. So, actually hearing them and you know, taking that time to acknowledge and really listen, I think giving that space and you know, not listening as in like you're listening and you're waiting to give a response or you're trying to fix it, because naturally sometimes people don't want you to sit and fix, they want you to listen. So actively listen to that person.
Helen Stuart:
Are they talking about? What have they got to say? Um, but then also sort of giving some sort of plan what are we going to do from this point? What can we do to keep you safe? What you know? What things can we do right now? And they might be really really small things actually to them or feel huge. You know it could you know.
Helen Stuart:
Do you want me to? You know, if it is a peer-to-peer sort of situation, ask them. Do you want me to talk to your parents about this? Do you want me to. You know, have a conversation, try and seek their um, you know permission as much as possible, because I think that actually there are times where we can't do that and we're going to have to tell someone we're going to have to do that to keep themselves safe. But actually they might say, yeah, I just need someone to help me have this conversation, so don't be afraid to ask that.
Helen Stuart:
But then also, I think it's about after those conversations. You know what are you going to do after that. How are you going to make sure that person's keeping safe? Is it that you need to kind of encourage them to make a phone call to the GP? Don't expect people to just do that on their own. Sometimes, when you're in the absolute depths of despair, making a phone call to a GP can seem like the hardest thing to do. Can you do that with that person? Can you go along to that appointment with? You know, offer as much support as you can.
Tamsin Caine:
That's good advice.
Tamsin Caine:
I think I think, just rewinding a little bit, you've asked the question and somebody says yes, and I think, just rewinding a little bit, you've asked the question and somebody says yes, and I think you're absolutely right. Listening and holding the space for them is brilliant, because what you must want to do is just run away. Then, like I don't know how to deal with this, I don't know what. From what you've said about listening and holding the space, we should be asking more questions. What else should we be asking, like, how do we, how do we move that conversation forward? From that? Yes, I don't think I'm any use to the world and I think I shouldn't be here anymore. I considered harming myself. I have, like, where do we go from that information? Because that's, that's big for the person hearing it for the first time as well as it being huge, isn't it? Who's who's saying yes?
Helen Stuart:
so I think it's important to differentiate between, um, somebody who is feeling suicidal and then someone who has got the intent and is going to carry out, carry out that action. So asking somebody do you have a plan, have you planned this out? Do you know what you would do which again feels and even saying that is such a hard question to ask and you again, the response you could get would be unbelievably difficult to hear. Actually asking that and asking them to say that out loud is incredibly powerful. Um, and then again sort of letting that that person, that person may turn around and say no, I've just had these thoughts, or that person might give you quite a detailed plan of what they're going to do.
Helen Stuart:
At that point, I think that you're in a, you're in a space there, you've got an opportunity to try and actually do something um, and I would encourage that you then seek, um, you know, immediate mental health support at that point as well and try and do that with them as much as possible. So, whether that is, like I said, sort of attending sort of one of these sanctuaries you know, calling the samaritans, which are absolutely the volunteers on, the samaritans are brilliant and you are able to do that with, with the person there and then and you can do that together, um, and then presenting at a and a as well as always an option. But yeah, really hard question to ask, but really important question to ask as well.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah crikey, that's, uh, that's, that's a big, that is a big question that's really hard to to deal with and I think I I kind of come from this, so from my own personal experience.
Helen Stuart:
So I, my father, died by suicide when I was 18 years old and we had absolutely no idea he was feeling that way at all. He had suffered with his mental health for years, um, but never in a million years did I ever think he would, he would take in his own life. So it was a complete and utter shock to us. So I think this comes with a caveat. Sometimes it is so difficult to you know, we talk about suicide prevention all the time and I think there are things we can do. But I also think that he's had that conversation with somebody. Um, you know, unfortunately sometimes people can be so unwell that they really cannot see past that and you can get them all the help that they can get, you know, all the support, and that it's not a failure on your part if you've not been able to prevent that, because you've done as much as you can. So I think it comes with a real caveat of that. I think that's really important to mention.
Helen Stuart:
You know, I there was nothing we could have done to promote dad's death. I don't actually think, because we were so in the dark about it. Um, he had depression, he struggled with his mental health, but was a time when no one really spoke about it, you know. And so at the time, no, I don't think there was anything more that we could have done. But actually today, I think I probably would have been far more open to having that conversation. And had he verbalized that, had he said you know, I'm thinking about dying, you know, like that could have been difference between that actually happening and not happening. Um, so, as scary as it feels, as, um, you know, daunting and vulnerable and all of those emotions that come with that, I would say, you know, it is far better for your friend to break down and cry to you than you to have to go to their funeral, because that is ultimately the reality of it
Tamsin Caine:
yeah, absolutely
Tamsin Caine:
I do think it's massively important that that we do remember that you couldn't have prevented it. You know yes, there are other things that we know now that talking can massively help, that there is support out there for people, but we shouldn't. You know, you try as family, as friends're. You are there for your family and for your friends and and there shouldn't be any layer of guilt. So if anybody out there has lost anybody to suicide, it's no, they were going to do that. That's, that's the decision that they made and and you know there should be, there should be no guilt on it. What we're talking about today is is, if we feel that somebody is in those depths, that how do we go about dealing with it? And a massive thank you for sharing your story, because that's such a difficult story to cope with, isn't it?
Helen Stuart:
And I think you know we are 15 years on from from when that happened and I would say that, unfortunately, in 15 years, I don't really think we've moved on too much from there. I think suicide is still the biggest killer among men. I can't don't quote me off in terms of the ages, but why, you know, why is this still happening. You know why is this still happening to, you know, young people, you know all those different things you know. And what do we need to change, what do we need to make better? And how do we prevent it from even getting to that point in the first place?
Helen Stuart:
And I think that's what we're really talking about here is that actually kind of having kind of really open and honest conversations quite early on, and kind of having kind of really open and honest conversations quite early on and kind of, you know, allowing people to be able to feel safe enough to discuss that and be open, um, you know, I think is such is a great start.
Helen Stuart:
And you know we've got an opportunity here with kind of again, I talk about this new generation coming through all of the time, because I think that they're a generation that are being exposed to so much, um, but we've not got it right so far. So how can we, how can we try and get it right now, how can we try and fix that and you know, create a safe space for people to feel that they can be open and talk about those challenges and talk about, you know, some of the darkest thoughts and the darkest feelings in my house, because you know it must be awful to hear that, to be the recipient of someone who gets told that someone is trying to want thinking of taking their own life, but think how that must feel for the person that's having to verbalize it yeah, you can't.
Tamsin Caine:
Can you, you can't? No, I think most of us can't put ourselves in that space and that's what that's sort of. One of the reasons it's so difficult is because you can't put yourself in a space where, where that feels like the only option, because that that nobody goes into it, thinking there are, there are other choices. They, they go down that route because that feels like the only option to them and it's yeah, just yeah. It's. It's heartbreaking. You just can't put yourself in that space at all.
Tamsin Caine:
So you're absolutely right in terms of we've talked about options for, kind of, when we find somebody in a space where we feel that that they're struggling so much with their mental health that they are considering hurting themselves in some way. What about prevention? Let's try and put a positive spin on this for a bit. So obviously we're a divorce podcast and we want to think from a parent's perspective and we talked a couple of episodes ago about, about therapy for children and about helping them build, build up resilience. Are there other options for preventing, for helping um, children and young people to talk out loud? Are there? Yeah, what? Where can they? What can they do? Are the things that are available for them?
Helen Stuart:
so I think, um, first and foremost, I think role modeling I think be a really positive role model when it comes to discussing mental health. Because I think if you are surrounded by uh, you know positive adults in your life, whether that is mum, dad, grandparents, aunties, uncles, that sort of thing, you know that positively role model, mental health and how you're feeling. You know kind of the check-in conversations when you come home, you know when they come home from school, you know.
Helen Stuart:
I mean I ask my son how if he's had a good day like he barely tells me anything but you know, just like, yeah, yeah, just role model, role modeling kind of, you know, and telling them about your day and be like really hard meeting today and you know, and talk about those feelings. You know, I think it's about kind of you know, we all kind of have these surface level conversations, but really role model that actually you're, you are comfortable to be vulnerable and to kind of talk really openly about those feelings. So I think that's really important because what that then does is that it filters down to your children, who then go, okay, well, this is actually okay to kind of talk about this and you hope, hoping that that then has a bit of a ripple effect. They, they then talk openly to their friends about it, you know. And then for me, you know, I know that I now, with my children, get really open about mental health and we talk about that a lot. So definitely think we can start from there.
Helen Stuart:
I think that schools are doing more around mental health, which is brilliant, and I think there are, you know, we've worked with a couple of schools around sort of talking about mental health and talking about the importance of kind of knowing when, when to seek support, um, but you know we have a brilliant, um, you know, uh service, nhs service in this country, which I know people have their opinions on and everything but GPs. You know there are brilliant GPs out there to go and speak to and talk, tell them how you feel. Um, I think that there are. When we recognize these signs, if we think our child is struggling, again, kind of what we've previously spoke about is there is no judgment on seeking help and support. So if that is going to talk to a therapist, if that is going to talk to your gp, you know there are things like therapy is an incredible mechanism for helping you talk through traumas. You know, um, whether that be, you know if you've got some anxieties, whether that is that you know you're feeling low or you've got fears. You know we speak to a lot of children that are really frightened about going to school and trying to understand what that reason is. You know there are um services out there that are available for you to go to, and I think what's hard is that in this country there's an overwhelming amount of things online and it's like you don't know where to go, so you don't know what to go. So you absolutely go to the NHS similar around the NHS but there are other services that can help and support young people kind of navigate through those challenges. Because the earlier we can kind of do that, the more you know we've got more of a chance of kind of helping resolve some of those issues.
Helen Stuart:
Now. Therapy might not make things go away, but they'll give you some coping mechanisms to be able to cope with that and then you know you can do some processing, you can do some reflective work. You know there is so much stuff and it really gives people, you know, really solid base to go on because you know we are we talk about this a lot with my work with domestic abuse that we're trying to break the cycle of abuse, but there is a. There's a work with domestic abuse that we're trying to break the cycle of abuse, but there is a there's a cycle of all mental health we need to break as well. And if we can break that for the next generation and say actually let's start you off in a good place, you will then go on and hopefully have healthy relationships you will then have.
Helen Stuart:
You know all of those things you know it can be my of what I want the world to look like. I do think that we can do it. We just got to all work together to be able to kind of get there. I think
Tamsin Caine:
No, I think you're absolutely right. I think encouraging young people to talk is absolutely the first thing, and I think mental health is so easily hidden. You know, if you're playing with your mental health, you can hide it. You know, if you've broken your leg or you've got chicken pox, you know we can see it. It's out there, but your mental health is on the inside and it's because it can be so easily hidden and so many people with poor mental health are so really very good at masking and hiding it and putting on a brave face. And you know, and I do think in this country there's this stiff upper lip. I mean, that's quite an old phrase. But you know, putting on a brave face and and just getting on with it is kind of what you're expected to do. But actually sometimes your mental health just floors you and you need to talk and you do need something else by way of support.
Tamsin Caine:
Just want to mention a couple of groups that have come, and you might have some that you want to mention as well. We're in um south manchester, so some of these are local to us, but I'm sure there are similar things elsewhere. So there's a running club in that operates across greater manchester called mile shy um club. They also, as well as encouraging exercise and being really, really valuable for improving mental health, they also do have a talking shop, um, where you can go along. It's lovely, friendly people. Can't even tell you how friendly the people at mileshire club are, but they they offer um the opportunity to to sit and talk and to to discuss things that are on your mind, which I think is absolutely incredible.
Tamsin Caine:
And then the other thing is a rugby-related charity called Loose Heads, which are attempting to put a mental health lead in all rugby clubs across the UK, which will just be incredible, because rugby clubs are essentially the people who go there and who play. There are young men, young women, and loose heads give them a sign posting. But also, if there's been anything that's happened, such as, unfortunately, our um, our lovely player who we lost last year, they um were able to set up some sessions for our young people, our players, to come and talk about what had happened and to to encourage them to talk to one another as well about experiences, and so, yeah, just wanted to mention those two. Are there any groups that you've come across that encourage? I know there's a men's talking one, but can't remember what it's called.
Helen Stuart:
There's one locally to me called uh it's mental, I think which is a men's talking group. Um, they, there are a couple. So the one thing so I follow um quite closely, the uh campaign against living miserably. So they are brilliant, so they're calm and they do an awful lot around sort of suicide prevention and kind of their tools and techniques in terms of kind of how to kind of talk to people who might be experiencing suicidal ideation. But there are more and more groups sort of popping up and I think mine are a great directory for these kind of groups that are around.
Helen Stuart:
Because also the network of support that you have is so important. And if you are feeling lonely you know suffering with poor mental health is quite a lonely experience anyway because you do feel your brain tells you that you're on your own and you know nobody cares and all those things like. But if you can surround yourself with you know really positive um, you know a network um, especially as well, for um we've got things around young mums as well, that you know. If you've got postnatal depression, there's lots of support groups out there. Um, so you know, I think that I know that there are is more to be done in that space, but people are recognizing there is a need for this now. So I think if you are looking for some sort of group and some sort of support, um, the exercise groups are huge and so, with my local gym that I go to, um is all around kind of um.
Helen Stuart:
Mental health and fitness and I think the two are so closely linked and I think actually encouragement around that. And another point as well is that conversations and you know when you want to have these chats and if you want to feel like you can have a conversation with somebody about their mental health, going for a walk I cannot stress enough how much you will get if you're on a walk with somebody, because there is something about movement and there is scientific, there are studies around this, around movement, about kind of being on a destination together and being able to talk openly and freely. So get yourselves outside, have a chat, because that is a really, really important place to kind of be open and to kind of, yeah, feel like you can, you're not in the constraints or somewhere where you can't talk openly.
Tamsin Caine:
I would definitely encourage that constraints or somewhere where you can't talk openly. Um, I would definitely encourage that. No, I love that and it it's that being side by side instead of facing, you can't see how the other people reacting, and so on. There's some driving in a car, I'm sure. Yes, trying to remember what his name, the DJ guy I feel like it's called Ronan, but then that that doesn't sound right. I think Roman Kemp. Roman Kemp, thank you. Yeah, Roman Kemp talks about um because he lost it, his yeah side um, and he talks about being in a car. So that side by side thing and walking is the same thing. That side by side thing, it's so much easier to open up.
Helen Stuart:
So so much easier. Yeah, yeah, I would definitely say my previous work with working with young people is that when I was having difficulty kind of having any conversations, I got them in a car and I drove somewhere. Oh, totally different ball game. So definitely would encourage that yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
I think there are some um walking mental health groups available as well, I think. If you are, if you do want a place to talk and you do want to to open up, get on google, have a look what's available in your local area, because these groups are popping up all over the place that that support activity, that support your mental health. Um, and, yeah, let's, let's hope that we've done a little bit in in encouraging people to to open up, to support one another and, and hopefully, if we made a difference to one person by recording this podcast, it will have been worth us doing it. Is there anything else you want to add, Helen, before we finish?
Helen Stuart:
well, just to say you know that if you are struggling, if you, you know you are in a place where you are worried about a loved one, you are worried about yourself. Um, you know there are some brilliant help plans out there. I've always mentioned um, Samaritan's, Mind, um and uh, Against Living Miserably are always great. You know. Also, if you feel like you want someone to talk to, then yeah, please do reach out and we can drop some stuff around kind of different advice lines and things like that. But please, just please, don't be afraid to talk, although it will feel like the scariest thing ever to do. You know, life is always worth living.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. That's a perfect note to end on. We will include some helplines in the show notes, so please do check those out if you or anybody that you know needs those, and thank you for listening. I hope this wasn't too painful for you and I hope it's given you at least some ideas of how to help people in your life. Thank you so much, helen. Massively appreciate you joining us and you being so open about the smart divorce podcast.
Tamsin Caine:
If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, www. smartdivorce. co. uk. Also, if you are listening on apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called separation, divorce and dissolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group, and we'd be delighted to have you join us, and the one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.