In this episode, Tamsin talks to Rosie Lyon, a Domestic Abuse survivor who is determined to make a “fairer financial future for sufferers and survivors of domestic abuse”. They discuss, amongst other things, issues with accessing bank accounts, being tied to a mortgage jointly with an abuser and the future credit issues of stopping paying credit taken out for or with an abuser.
Rosie Lyon suffered domestic abuse for 7 years without realising. Once she left her partner in 2019 she has continued to suffer forms of abuse, mainly financial.
Rosie changed her life around and started an idea of ‘A Fairer Financial Future for Sufferers and Survivors of Domestic Abuse’. With her idea, she has started to change the banking industry. She has also been awarded Young Banker of the Year Worldwide 2021.
LinkedIn: Rosie Lyon
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Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://calendly.com/tamsin-caine/15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine 0:06
Hello, and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. In series four, we're going to be talking to various different professionals and others who have gone through divorce, and dissolution of civil partnership, to talk about the future, and how you can start helping things to look much more positively. And we have some fantastic guests lined up. But if there is anything specific that you would like us to cover, please do get in touch. And you can contact me through our website, www. smartdivorce.co.uk. And I look forward to hearing from you soon. Enjoy!
Wow, so I've just finished recording today's podcast, with the incredible Rosie Lyon. She's 27 years old, and she is a domestic abuse survivor. And definitely survivor because the things that she is doing to make a difference in our society, and following what she's experienced are absolutely incredible. And I really hope that you are inspired by the conversation that's going to follow and that if you are in a similar position, and you are suffering at the hands of an abuser, that this will give you some light at the end of the tunnel and perhaps help you to find some inner strength to potentially leave. I really hope you enjoy it.. And today I'm really pleased to be joined by Rosie Lyon, and now she's becoming a bit of a celebrity, and certainly on Instagram, and Rosie one young banker of the year worldwide for 2021, which is an absolutely amazing achievement. And and she won it with the idea of a fairer financial future for sufferers and survivors of domestic abuse. And sadly, Rosie is well, happily she's a domastic abuse survivor but sadly,she had to go through it. Rosie, welcome! We're so glad to have you here.
Rosie Lyon 2:27
Thank you for having me.
Tamsin Caine 2:29
It's an absolute pleasure. And I think that I come across so many people who have been subjected to domestic abuse, whether it be in marriage or not, like like yourself, and and the thing, can I start by kind of asking you what, so you have this idea about a fair financial future for survivors and survivors of domestic abuse. But tell me tell me what the idea is how you how it came about first of all?
Rosie Lyon 3:03
Yep. So obviously, I'm a sufferer a survivor of domestic abuse. I left my partner after seven years, we had a joint property together. That was in 2019. And, and three months down the line of separation, it was like post separation abuse, and it turned physical where I needed to get a restraining order in place. And I had to move out of my property back into my parents house. So up until September 2020, I was paying the mortgage in full, but not living there. Because he wasn't paying anything. And, you know, with legal advice, it was the only path to go down was to stop paying altogether. To this day, he's still living in that property, and is going through the courts this year for a repossession order. And due to that I'm getting poor credit scoring due to no fault of my own. And I work in the banking industry. So you know, I knew a little bit about the financial background and from my own personal experience from the mortgage provider that I am with. And I could tell that there was a gap in regards to domestic abuse, I didn't know how to treat domestic use sufferers and survivors just because of the knowledge sort of thing. There was a lack of empathy. You know, there was a specialised team that was looking after me, but again, they didn't have this specialised training on it. And, you know, I just didn't want anybody to go through what I had to go through with having to repeat my story constantly. The stress of it. Oh, and for me, it was whether or not I'd be able to stay in the banking industry, because, you know, once when you interview for a banking job, they asked for, you know, like, do a credit referencing check, and mine would always come back negative. So, you know, it took a while to think about it. And that's where the inspiration come from. It kind of come from me and at the time when I was going through it. I thought obviously I'm not but I thought I was the only person going through this. And I was like, it's not fair. So one day, I turned around to my mortgage provider and said, Do you have a domestic abuse policy because the charity refuge, I've been speaking to them, and really good helpline if you're feeling a bit emotional and want a bit of advice. And there was like some cases of domestic abuse policy. So I asked them, and they said, No, and I thought I'll go to my bank that I work for. And they didn't have one either. And that's kind of where the whole idea started. Really.
Tamsin Caine 5:37
That's absolutely amazing. Um, I mean, I totally like, I totally get that the whole thing with mortgage because you carry on paying because you, you're aware, cuz you're in banking, that if you stop, then it's a mark against credit history. But then if you keep paying, you're allowing him to come, it's sort of in a way to continue to find that to abuse you really, because you're you're still forking out for, for his house. That's really horrendous. So, di D is brilliant. It's absolute genius, because I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's, I don't think domestic abuse is is known about in, in certainly in the UK as as it might be. It's not one of those things that we don't talk about, isn't it?
Rosie Lyon 6:26
Yeah, it's like a taboo subject really, isn't it?
Tamsin Caine 6:28
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the thing, you know, you getting out there and talking about it and others doing the same as well, you know, I think it's really valuable. So what would you expect to see in the domestic abuse policy? I'm interested?
Rosie Lyon 6:44
Yeah, so I brought out with the help of HR and other stakeholders within the bank that I worked for, I brought a domestic abuse workbook, like a handbook sort of thing, rather than we didn't want to call it a policy, it's kind of more friendlier, calling it a handbook. And basically, in the policy, it gives, what domestic abuses, the different types of abuses that you go through the myths of domestic abuse, because there is quite a lot of myths actually have only happens to certain people, certain genders, which isn't the case. And then what we can do as employer to help our employees, so we give our staff an extra 10 days annual, and there's like flexible working programmes, how to keep them stay safe working from the office, and from home, and then signposting to all different sort of charities and different like, you know, contact details of where they can get help and advice from, and I'm really proud of it went live in our workplace in September, just before the finals of the Young Banker of the Year competition. And you know, I'd seen other policies out there, there's not many in banking at all, I think there was two banks that had some. And so we looked at theirs, and some of them were, like quite long winded, jargony, like, you know, some of you pick up and be like, I really can't be bothered to read this. Show friendly and easy read. And that's what I wanted. And I couldn't I couldn't be happier than, and I've used it. I've used it myself, because I had a court hearing this year. So I used it to take a day off. And it was really easy to use. And yeah, that the massive change that you see in the banking industry already just from having that it's just it's so empowering. It's amazing.
Tamsin Caine 8:31
That's fantastic. Well done. Yeah, that's, that's really
Rosie Lyon 8:34
Thank you!
Tamsin Caine 8:35
And does the policy cover anything about about clients as well.
Rosie Lyon 8:42
So we are looking at because we did it from a staff perspective, because I worked with HR on this one. But we are looking at how we can do one from customers. And it'll be like, procedures, such as if a customer discloses domestic abuse, how we can help that customer. And that's kind of how all my ideas come into that. So my ideas split up of four parts, where it's the raising awareness, implementing training, enhancing policies and procedures, and then how to obtain lending opportunities for sufferers and survivors that have poor credit due to no fault of their own. So I'm working really hard on all of them. And quite a lot of them like the raising awareness, and some sort of procedures coming out in the banking industry. And we, we, I made one as well, the policies trying to get all the banks to kind of put them into place as well and other workplaces because it's always good to have one. And then the lending one is is kind of like the more challenging one, but it's manageable. And it's like it's really exciting to see the idea unfold.
Tamsin Caine 9:43
Oh, yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing is that sometimes it's not just the poor credit history, it's it's the fact that if you've got to get out you might not have access to money of any description. Next, how can you then fight the person? Like not physically, obviously, but but like, actually go about leaving them and fight for what's yours without any money? Because you essentially need need to have access to funds in order to be able to kind of fight what is left behind don't?
Rosie Lyon 10:21
Yeah, that's it. And we've liked sort of different procedures. When you think of one idea, and loads of ideas come from it, as you know, all sorts of financial abuse is completely different. It's not set in stone with like, just one type is it. But the banks in the UK anyway, we are looking at how we can bring out different procedures to help sufferers and survivors of domestic abuse, including economic financial abuse, and that could be sort of like opening a bank account, when they've had a joint bank account or, you know, stuff like that. So there is sort of things in the pipeline to sort that out in the future near future. Shall I say? But yeah, definitely.
Tamsin Caine 11:00
That's really good to hear. Because so often, I think it's still most bullying tactic, isn't it, you know, you've got a powerful guy who might, I know, I'm being sexist here, I'm saying, women a man, because it often is that way around, but I am aware that it can happen either way about and, you know, you often have the powerful person who's been the abuser. And, and they're, they're the one who has the financial clout and the they've kind of got all the power of the money. And then the person who's being abused and is having to leave is often left in a position where they, they can't stand up for themselves in, for example, in a court of law, they can't actually fight the make it legally, which that's something that's, like, bothering me more and more as I as I do more and more of this work, because I see so many clients like suffering at their, at the hands that these, if you've got any ideas as to how we can help, too, I'm putting you on the spot extremity. You got any ideas as to how we might be able to do something about that? Yeah,
Rosie Lyon 12:15
I mean, there's loads of different things, like, you know, for me, for example, I was I've always been financially independent. And I was the one that dealt with the finances such that he, we had a joint bank account, all the money would start, keep going, you know, so kind of not the other way round. And so we've made like, you know, I'm getting poor credit ratings, and then I won't be able to get another mortgage, again, which is something that I kind of formed. But because of credit ratings, I can't, but I do think, you know, I've actually, I've started volunteering, like collaborating with a charity called E deck, UK. And they won't mind me mentioning this. And they're a domestic abuse charity in the UK, where they get businesses on board to pledge that, for instance, if you have suffered domestic abuse, and you haven't been in work, so you're looking for a job now, and there's gaps in your CV, businesses pledge that they will still consider you and you know, treat you equally fairly, regardless of them gaps in your CV, and I do think, you know, getting paid for to get back into the workplace and being able to get that fight, then finances is something really important. And that's something why I started volunteering with them and raising awareness of that charity, because they're quite a small charity. And but, you know, I just feel it's a brilliant idea. And that's the first step inside, who's helping these people that have suffered domestic abuse, if they haven't been in work, because someone who they've been with has been like, you know, bringing in all the finances, to help them get back into employment, you know, and give them them basic skills, such as CV writing, interviewing, and giving them the opportunities that they deserve.
Tamsin Caine 13:58
Yeah, like, that's great. And what was the was the charity EDAC? Is that EDAC?
Rosie Lyon 14:04
Yes, that's it.
Tamsin Caine 14:05
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, then I'll get a website address a few more, put that in the show notes, if anybody wants to have a look at them and either support them more, or have a look for their own for their own purposes, if they're in that position. And so it was it was 2019 that, that this was all happening for you. And can I ask you about how you went about leaving because that's not sometimes the kind of hardest part of this, isn't it? I think, you know, Karen Kipping as well, don't you think Karen's book says that most domestic abuse abused people had take seven times before they actually managed to leave which which is horrific to me. But And I think I'm probably a bit naive as to... What happened with you?
Rosie Lyon 15:06
Yeah, so obviously, I was with this person for seven years. So from when I was 17 years old. And you know, that was my first proper relationship. So I think when I think back to it now, I think I probably stayed there longer, because I didn't realise it was domestic abuse at the time at all. I just felt, you know, like the arguing or anything like that, because there was no physical, there was no physical abuse during the relationship, it would have been more financial, emotional, psychological. But at the time, naively, I just thought that was a normal relationship, because I didn't know any different because that was my first proper relationship. And, you know, we brought this property together. Like, with mainly my help, and I built his credit score enough, because it was more like trying to, I think, from the start, it was trying to help him better his life, and like, I can fix it. And I think Karen speaks about that in her book as well. I can fix it that you can't. So basically, it was January 2019. We were it was a Sunday, and we just went out for the day. And I said to him, I don't think it's working anymore. And I don't know what I'd been off on sick leave the year before, like one of my friends had passed away as well. And I think it just kind of brought things into perspective that life was, you know, to show and, you know, do I actually want this forever. And I didn't, and so, you know, but I said, like, we'll keep, we'll keep trying for another six months or so. But you know, nothing changed in the sense that, you know, I was working in London at the time. So this is before COVID. So I had to go to work every day. So I was getting like a train at like, just gone six in the morning, because I was working. I was working in Finchley Road in London. So that was like an hour and a half commute. One way. So you know, I was leaving, like just going six in the morning, leaving the house getting home. I was getting home quite early, they used to let me go early, because I live so far away, getting home say at like six. And you know, he'd been home for an hour when he was just laying on the sofa. Hadn't started dinner, hadn't done any cleaning expecting me to do everything you know. And I was kind of like, nothing changed. I was just fed up of it. So one day, it was June 2019. I think it's a fair time. Actually, it was a Sunday, another Sunday. And I was in bed actually. And he had gone to shopping to get some stuff for work. And he said to me, he rang me and was like, Oh, I can't find the joint bank account card. And I was like, you know, when you're like, like, then he was like, oh, no, I can't find my credit card either. So can you transfer me 80 quid because he still had his own personal account, whereas I did it. And I just had the joint account. And I think it was like, That was enough was enough. And I had spoken to someone, a friend. And he had said to me, you know, he had split up with his partner at the time. And he had said to me, you just got to do what makes you happy. It's your life. And I thought I'm not happy. So he got back from shopping. And I just turned around and I said like, I don't want to be with you anymore. And then once that happened, he took it really well, funnily enough, and I was a bit like, why is he taking it so well didn't expect him to. Because even though I broke up with him, I still had, like, you know, the week of like, upset because I felt like, you know, the guilt of the like, you know, that was seven years of my life, I just kind of not lost but like, you know, it's gone now. And you know, it was starting to fresh and I was like, I don't know how to do that, you know, so, and I was living in the property because it was two bedrooms. And up until August. But this is when the emotional abuse started at post separation. I was getting on the train at work. And I'd get text phone calls saying, you know, I'm going to smash your car up, I'm going to burn your house down with your parents inside. It was all empty threats. And again, I didn't do anything about it. Because you know, I just thought I was just angry because I was trying to keep it amicable. We had a property I was trying to get rid of like trying to get him to sell this property. And I'd have to keep coming back from work or, you know, he'd leave or like there's dirty washing on the kitchen floor still expects me to clean up after him. And the flat was disgusting because I was like, I'm not cleaning up after him. I'll clean up after myself. And emotionally it was just too much for me. It was stressful. And I literally it was in August I broke down and I said like I can't I can't live here anymore. Not to him. I broke down to my parents and I moved in with them. I didn't tell him I was moving out. I just picked up a few bits and left I'd go back at weekends to pick up my post. And then October was when the physical abuse happened and the police came and never saw it won't apart from when I was in court in the December of 2019. I've never seen him again since.
Tamsin Caine 19:59
It sounds like a good thing.
Rosie Lyon 20:01
Yes, that is a good thing. Even though obviously, my, the flat that we jointly own, which I know he's doing it because someone's you know, who lives around the areas that I've seen him come out of it or whatever. And it's only about a seven minute drive away, if anything and his family live, you know, within like a five minute drive away, you know, so everybody's very close. So, for me, it was a massive step. Like, you know, I don't know if I should do this, but I'm so glad that I did.
Tamsin Caine 20:31
Yeah, absolutely. I think like how, I'm sure it's not easy, like, don't get me wrong, but I think that once she's, once you've left, it has to be a positive thing. Because the again, you can move in yourself out of that situation. So I know, everybody situations different, you know, you'll like this. I'm sure there's no two abuse situations that are that are identical. But for you, was it? And was they didn't start immediately that you were together? Or was it kind of progressive, so that you kind of didn't really know, almost didn't notice it was happening? Because it sort of crept up on you.
Rosie Lyon 21:19
Yeah, I mean, do you know what cuz ever since I got someone that empowered me, it was like a coach, sort of thing that the NHS gave you. And they were amazing. And they introduced me to the freedom programme, and I started looking up about stuff. This is before I even wanted to go down the domestic abuse field with raising awareness. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. This is amazing, isn't like this book's amazing. But this was my life. And I didn't even realise but you know, so I was 17, he was three and a half to four years older than me so, he would have been about 21 at the time. And he at the time, here the red flags come in, he had no job. He lived at home, which I mean, for 21. I don't see that as much as a red flag, but because, you know, I don't expect people to leave. I still live from my parents. And I'm 27. And he was like, you know, he weren't looking after himself. He was doing drugs. And he was getting in trouble with the police. So I mean, the red flags were there. And I think, for me, I was kind of like, Oh, but I can I help fix him? Well, I can help him better his life. And you know, and then it would be like, the emotional sort of abuse like to ask him not to do certain drugs he's doing behind my back. And that was probably about a month in. So I had a chance I should have left, really, but I believed in him that you know, we can get him better. And then it would be like the arguments like he would never apologise for anything, it'd be my fault, regardless. And then obviously, when we broke up, after I helped him get a job, like get his licence, or, you know, all different things to help him survive life. And it just went completely backwards. He lost his job at the time, and stuff like that. And it was just like this all this seven years of my hard work wasted. But yeah, no, so probably was there at the start. I should have seen the red flags, but again, didn't realise that they were that bad.
Tamsin Caine 23:20
Yeah, we have rose tinted glasses when we first meet somebody, don't we and do time to kind of be aware. You mentioned the freedom programme. And that's something that that a couple of my clients have been through. And for anybody who isn't aware what it is to do, could you tell us a little bit more about it?
Rosie Lyon 23:39
Yeah, so the freedom programme, was a programme created by Pat Craven. And it's a book that you can go online, you can go to the actual course, in person as well, well, COVID restricted, it would be online. I've never actually been to the online one. But I did the actual online course, which you do step by step on your own sort of thing. And I had the book, and she brought this out because she used to work in prisons, and she used to reform prisoners. And then she was like, need to do it from another set, you know, and she also helped people that wanted to stay with their abuser, who understood that they were abusive, to, you know, rehabilitate them as well. But it was just like to help people that have been through domestic abuse, and to help them make not better decisions, because it's not their fault, but to spot them red flags for when they go into another relationship and stuff like that. And it's such the book is I still got the book, and it's such an easy read as well. It's very easy to pick up. Read, understand, and I must say when I first read it, the first start of the first chapter I stopped when I read it, because it was just like, This is what I've been through. This is who I was with as you're describing the person that I was with, and you know fee for all that time and when I read lawsuits, domestic abuse I was I, I'm the only one going through this. But you know, when you read it like, there we go. There it is like, it's not just me, you know. So it's very comforting as well, I find,
Tamsin Caine 25:12
oh, that's good. I think it certainly the people I know who've been through the programme, they have actually been to their physical sessions. And yet they is just amazing. And, and like it has helped them to think to find some inner strength that they probably didn't know that they had. Which is, which is absolutely brilliant. I'm fascinated to find out a little bit more about what's next for you. So, so where do you where do you? Where do you go from here? Things are obviously moving a pace for you. And I have to say, like, obviously, I know you've written a book, I have it on my don't only Kindle, but it's very small. But yeah, reading it. And it's a it's, it's a brilliant read. All, as I say, a bit a bit scary. So what's next?
Rosie Lyon 26:19
Yeah, I mean, for me, obviously, the young banker of the year 2022 Competition has just come out by the chartered banker Institute. So I've been doing a lot with the chartered banker into the bank that I worked for, to help sort of promote it. And I'm all for female empowerment. I was the only female in the final. And, you know, it was a worldwide competition, as I, you know, you know, it's very male orientated financial sector, which is fine, I don't mind. But I think more females need to come forward. So I've just done a blog for them about that. I've become a mentor on the chartered banker Institute to help females that, you know, going through the young bank of the year process and anything else that they need mentor in on amongst they're doing a webinar from for them on the second of February, at one o'clock with alpha Vesta CIC, which is they're all about domestic abuse, and they train people in businesses and stuff like that they're fully funded by the National Lottery as well. And so I've because that's where all my sort of volunteering started with alpha Vesta. And so I was like, you know, let's do it. How am I L P, ha, ha, yeah, spikes, VISTA, V. s. T. A, and their community interest company based in Essex. It's run by Lucy, I Love Lucy. And big shout out to Lucy, though. So I'm doing that with them. I've joined the scale community, which is like, lots of empowering females on there. And in February, I'm doing a talk for them. I'm doing a talk on, I'm too low to talk. To be fair, I'm going to there's loads of talks coming up loads of webinars, different podcasts. I also do lots of volunteering, collaboration with charities, anything really I do. I'm doing talks for the NHS at the University of Essex, and I do anything that comes to let anybody offers me some fear. If I can do it, I'll do it if it raises awareness, and it gives me that sort of scope. And then one day, hopefully, obviously, I'd like to continue transforming the banking industry, so we can all live happily in the financial world. But I think one day I'd like to, you know, go solo, maybe doing like public speaking, or I'd like to, I'd love to have one day maybe a charity on financial abuse, because of the obviously lending opportunities that I'm working on. Anyways, that's a massive project in itself. And I just think there's not any charities out there really, that use financial abuse solely. Or like, you know, you have the domestic abuse ones, but they don't really mention too much about financial abuse. And it's because there's nothing really there to help as such in financial abuse. There's no, you've got survived in economic abuse, the charity, and I'm very, I love Nikola, that's the founder of that as well. And I, when I one young bank of the year I got donation, I got to I got to donate 1000 pounds to charity of my choice. So I chose surviving economic abuse, because they work with banks on economic abuse to stop people getting debt and how to get rid of their debt. And I thought it was very matching with that. So yeah, really just like lots of new things coming up. Obviously, I've got the book that come out. I brought that out randomly, like it was done. I was like, oh, let's just pop it out there. And I need to properly edit it to put it in the physical phone because everybody apparently still likes to read a physical book. I'm more like we've I've got a Kindle and I'm not absolutely fine Whatever, whatever the followers want.
Tamsin Caine 30:07
I'm definitely about all about buying a book when it's got pages in it. Absolutely let me know when it comes out I'm gonna get a copy Oh, that's brilliant. It sounds like you've got so much going on and, and like so many ideas of things that you want to you want to change and you want to help people to do and I think you're a massive inspiration for so many people and then know that that your words will have will have helped a lot of our our listeners and and people who are stuck in these situations not not knowing what to do next and how to get out. And how do people find you follow you contact you, you have different people to contact?
Rosie Lyon 30:58
Yeah, so I have people contact me quite a lot to share their story with me. I had one lady who it was before Christmas, she messaged me out of the blue. She had shared me on LinkedIn. And she had been following my young bank the journey, my story because the charter bankers, that's all on there. And I share quite a lot of stuff. And she she said to me that after after seeing if he is doing it gave her the courage to leave her abuser after 19 years. Yeah, so and I talked to her still, like we talk quite often and stuff like that. And she's so lovely. And like, you know, it's just things like that helped me keep going. So I have my LinkedIn, which is Rosie Lyon, and why Oh, am because you know, some people call me. Oh, no. And then I've got the sort of like, Rosie Yes. Dva. So it's all one word. So dv is domestic violence and abuse and roses. My name and x is my middle name Sarah, so I just used it, or roses, dva, whatever you want to call it. So that's that for Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, my email is Rosie ftva@outlook.com. That any sort of, if you follow me on Instagram or have it in my bio, I've got a link and all my links are all there, including if you want to go on any webinars like all the webinars, I do generally a free. So if you wanted to sign up to do like to watch one of them, then I put it on there as well. So it's a handy tool to have virtually everything in one place
Tamsin Caine 32:30
is no it's absolutely brilliant. I went on there earlier to go and hover and scour through some of your blogs, which are excellent. I have to say. It's been a real pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much for agreeing to come and talk to me today.
Rosie Lyon 32:48
Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.
Tamsin Caine 32:51
Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. Hi, and I hope you enjoy the episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for details or go into the website www.smartdivorce.co.uk. Also, if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That will be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some work further support we do have Facebook group now. It's called separation divorce and dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook search the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care
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