Facing a divorce with a partner exhibiting narcissistic traits? Tamsin and Rachel Ward walk through the challenging legal landscape and emphasise the necessity of a competent legal and emotional support team. Rachel and I share insights into the high thresholds required to establish conduct cases and discuss the emotional and financial burdens these impose on victims.
This episode is a follow-up to last week's blog "Surviving Divorce from a narcissist"
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Rachel Ward
Rachel is a solicitor based in Hill Dickinson Solicitors Manchester Office but represents clients globally, many in Dubai, Geneva and London. Rachel has a wide range of experience in all areas of family law spanning over 10 years exclusively practising in family law. Rachel has a specialism in managing and resolving financial and child arrangement disputes for clients who are separating from partners with narcissism or narcissistic personality traits.
Rachel is also passionate about demonstrating that there are amicable ways to achieve a favourable settlement, allowing her clients to navigate litigation with dignity and composure. Her primary goal is to enable both parties to co parent effectively after the separation, always prioritising the best interests of the child.
Her comprehensive understanding of family law, combined with her compassionate approach has made Rachel a trusted advisor and advocate for countless individuals ranging from people in the music industry, influencers, solicitors and business owners. Rachel has been listed as one of the best 28 best divorce lawyers in Manchester by Wiselaw.
https://www.hilldickinson.com
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis. So we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away, so so if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast.
Tamsin Caine:
I'm very pleased to be joined today by the lovely Rachel Ward from Hill Dickinson Solicitors. I was saying to Rachel earlier she always looks incredibly glamorous whenever I see her, but she says she doesn't that way. But it's lovely for her to join me. I'm going to get her to introduce herself properly in just a couple of minutes, but today's episode we're going to be talking about a blog that was released by ourselves earlier on this week, written by Rachel, and Rachel is a survivor of divorce from a narcissist and she's written a blog talking about her journey. We're going to talk to Rachel today a bit about some of the things that Rachel went through, but also talking about some other options that it's worth considering if you're in the same position or a similar position that Rachel was in. So this is not the same Rachel as the Rachel who wrote the blog. I should clarify. Rachel, thank you for coming along today. Can you tell us a bit about you, what you do and your experience of working with people leaving abusive relationships?
Rachel Ward:
So morning. Hello everyone, thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and speak on your podcast today. I'm Rachel Ward. I'm a family solicitor, as you said, working at Hill Dickinson's. I am in the Manchester office, but we have offices in Liverpool, leeds, birmingham, london and also offices abroad, so I have clients all over the country.
Rachel Ward:
I started my career in legal aid so that gave me a lot of exposure to victims of domestic abuse and even though I've now moved into private practice, I have I still sort of have a lot of clients that have or are separating from relationships where there has been some sort of domestic abuse. So I have spent a lot of time talking about this to people like you. I recently attended a conference in London. I know that a lot of employers now are keen to learn a little bit more about victims of domestic abuse and people separating from relationships where there's been an element of domestic abuse and people separating from relationships when there's where there's been an element of domestic abuse. I work with individuals who have experienced all forms of abuse, so I know that people often think domestic abuse it's physical abuse, emotional, um, financial sexual abuse, um, obviously, each of these forms of abuse have lasting scars on people and I hope, now that I have learned enough, to have the empathy and knowledge to navigate people through this system. So I've had a little look at this blog that this lady, who's also called Rachel, has prepared, and I can see that she felt that she was in a bit of a broken system, that she found herself in a position where she didn't know where to turn, and I suppose this is really for me and you to show people that there are places to go for them to find a way of of leaving these sort of abusive relationships. So I've briefly looked at the blog and she does say, first of all, that she has found it difficult, first of all, just making the decision to leave and where to go.
Rachel Ward:
And I learned recently that that the big banks, like Lloyds and TSB, have started this new policy where you can go and speak to specialist trained individuals to for them to assist you in leaving now, and I think that that's a big change and I think it's definitely something that people should be exploring a little bit more, knowing that they have that support from their bank and things like that they will give them specialist um like non-disclosurable sort codes so that perpetrator doesn't know where they are.
Rachel Ward:
They'll help them set up with new pins, new bank accounts etc. Um, and I think that's one place that people should start looking straight away. Obviously it's finding a solicitor who's used to high conflict um separations, so it isn't always going to be someone like me, you know. It isn't someone who might not completely understand what is narcissistic personality disorder, but there are people who have a lot of experience with high conflict cases and it's just gathering your team around you and getting things together practically. So it's speaking to people like you, getting a financial advisor, understanding your finances, because I think a lot of people come to someone like me and think, oh, you can help me emotionally, financially, legally and we're not a one-stop shop, you know there are other professionals that are there to as sist as well
Tamsin Caine:
yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
I think. I think it's that definitely starting with your bank and getting and that that support there. I think you need a plan before you leave. You need to make sure that you, you are, you've got everything, all your ducks in a row, you know before you leave what your plan is, where you're going to go. You need to get your paperwork copied and out of the house yeah, safe and secure. You need to have all your plan completely in order and one of the places to start with with doing that, the Domestic Abuse Helpline.
Rachel Ward:
Or a charity. There's a charity that's called Hestia. That's like a group after crisis, so there's quite a lot of charities like that and, like you said, the Domestic Abuse Helpline. They can help you with non-holestation applications, occupation orders, but and also just understanding your finances. I always say to people because people will often speak to me before they're separated and I say to them do you have any idea what you can borrow?
Rachel Ward:
You know if you're looking at, you know purchasing again, you know you need to just go and speak to people like that as well and and know if you can buy them out of the house or whether or not you are going to have to move, because and that's the one question I always ask at the beginning as well, because some people are desperate to leave the family home, but people some people think that that's you know that that's their one sort of aim is to keep the family home for the children and that stability. So I think it's you also setting out your store, because everyone's different, so you need to guide your solicitor and your team as to what you want your future to look like as well.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
I think if you are looking for someone working as a financial advisor, make sure it's it's somebody who's not only got experience in working with people going through divorce, but preferably specializes in that area and also has experience of working with people living in an abusive relationship, because not everybody has. And you need somebody who understands your situation and is going to yeah, is going to understand what you're going through and the difficulties that arise from what you're going through and the difficulties that arise from from. Just you know, I think it's 95 percent of abusive relationships have some form of financial or economic abuse. That's if that's such a huge proportion. So you're probably going to be in a situation where if you're divorcing an narcissist, they they will have, or you know, or any abusive relationship. There will be some form of financial abuse and you need somebody who understands that and who understands that that means you're not going to have access to money in the same way that other people do.
Tamsin Caine:
It's fantastic that the banks are stepping up and and about it, and there's, there are also um, there's and I can't remember the name of the website, but I'll make sure we put it in the show notes um, there's, there are also there's and I can't remember the name of the website, but I'll make sure we put it in the show notes there's a website where you can go and you can get train tickets or bus tickets if you need to get away urgently. Now, obviously, that situation is you're, you know you're physically in in danger, danger, um, and then you can. You can go to that and and at least get away. If it's going to family, if it's going to friends that are at some distance away, there is that option for you if you don't have access to money. So there are some desperate situations where you can at least you can at least access money. And I guess the other thing is emotional support. I know you said before you're not going to go to your solicitor for emotional support.
Rachel Ward:
Well, they do, but it's very expensive they do?
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, exactly and same thing. You know, don't come to your financial planner or your financial advisor for emotional support, because, whilst we'll do our absolute best to give it, we're not trained in providing emotional support. We're not therapists. Providing emotional support we're not. We're not therapists. There are divorce coaches out there who can, who can help you through the process at a lower cost than you'll be paying to myself or to a solicitor. There are therapists out there and many of our clients need both the divorce coach and the therapist to get them through emotionally, to give them that emotional support, to give them that counseling, because divorce is a really, really tricky thing to go through. It's one of the top most stressful things that anybody will go through, and if you're going through that and dealing with abuse as well and it and it often continues post-separation you need, you're likely to need that emotional support almost more than you need either of the two of us, don't you?
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, I've started even saying in some of my initial letters like signposting them to even self-help books and things like that, because not everyone can afford, you know, to go off and have a therapist and a divorce coach and a lawyer and a financial advisor. And so I do sometimes say, you know, there are books now online, or you know audible, or for you to go and purchase at Waterstones or you know at the bookshops and just signpost them to them, because there are, you know, support from other places now and there are. You know.
Rachel Ward:
I recently went to another conference and there's a lady who has written books just on separating from a narcissist, dr Supriya McKenna, and her books are excellent and you can get them on Audible and they just help you understand also what you're going through and what sort of traits to be looking for, because I think that's the hardest thing is trying to explain to someone who doesn't understand narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah, what, how they could come across and how they have manipulated the situation, because they're often charming and really well liked and in good positions, you know, in a good job, um, you know well like by the family and things like that and but behind closed doors are, you know, very manipulative and have made the person feel really inadequate at home. So, like you said, that's going to then manifest in them probably having a poorly paid job, if really inadequate at home. So, like you said, that's going to then manifest in them probably having a poorly paid job, if a job at all.
Tamsin Caine:
So that's where there is that, you know, economic abuse, which we touched on earlier, and it's just really hard and it's one of the first things that rachel says in her blog is is that she was in a system that didn't seem to believe her. And that's the biggest thing, because you're up against somebody who, as you say, comes across as very charming, very likeable within society, will probably be well thought of. So for the person who's been in a relationship with them, they're probably in a position where people are going no way. That's definitely not them. They wouldn't behave like that. That doesn't sound like them. So it's massively important they find professionals who believe them, who believe their story, who who aren't going to question what they're saying because, as you say, it's it's manipulation, it's coercive control, it's them having their own way in this. As you say, it's manipulation, it's coercive control, it's them having their own way. And, as you say, supriya's book's very clearly defined and as soon as anybody who's been in a relationship with someone with narcissistic personality disorder will pick it up and recognise the very, the playbook I think Supriya calls it. It's very defined behaviours that work in a systematic pattern.
Tamsin Caine:
Every time Supriya just as a side note has been on this podcast and there is an episode that you can go back and listen to where Supriya talks about this situation. So I think you're absolutely right. Get your team around you, and I know not everybody can afford to have all of the all of the team. That would be ideal, but sometimes it's actually lower cost to have all of the people doing the right jobs than it is to go to the wrong people for them to support you in it. You know, like you say, going to your solicitor for emotional support isn't, isn't, that's not going to be the best use of your money. So sometimes, although it sounds a lot for people, it's actually low, comes out to be a lower cost because you're getting the right people doing the right jobs in the right way, so that that is worth bearing in mind.
Rachel Ward:
I completely agree and I think that comes from getting the right legal support as well, because quite often people will try and keep people away from litigation. So people will say, oh, you know we should be going off to mediation or we could. You know we should be sending letters, we should be negotiating. But it's really difficult to negotiate with someone who has an autistic personality disorder and they they don't have any interest in reaching a fair settlement, they just want to win in their eyes. So they'll delay. They'll be so I've experienced so many of them. You know delaying tactics and not providing disclosure, asking for disclosure and you provide really detailed disclosure and then you get disclosure back and it just says TBC, tbc, tbc on theirs. And it's so difficult then. And then when you go to court a lot of people want me to say oh, you know, you've got to say he's got narcissistic personality disorder. I'm not a professional, I can't diagnose someone. I can recognize their traits, but I don't. I don't know what the statistics are. I imagine there's not that many people who are formally diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder because they've got to take themselves for diagnosis and they are never going to do that and the courts don't like labels. So I always have to steer the clients into a way of being able to provide the evidence without the labels, and I think that's the best way.
Rachel Ward:
And going to court, it's really sometimes the only way, because they are trapped within, you know, having time constraints. There's, you know, they're ordered to provide evidence. There's punish, you know some sort of sort of you know not punishment, that's not the right word, but there should be, you know, some sort of what's the word? Repercussions? Yes, that's the right word, you know, for failure to provide disclosure. And it's a place where we can put the facts to them and to the court for them to sort of and not be able to sort of, squirm out of it and be able. And once you put the facts to them and to the court, for them to sort of and not be able to sort of, squirm out of it and be able, and, and once they put you put the facts in front of them, you do see a very different side to them, and it is often at that point that we are able to then show the judge that this, this behavior, has had some sort of um, so it is.
Rachel Ward:
It is something that should be considered as a factor that, when considering the the fair sort of settlement
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely when, in your experience, when you've been to court with um clients who who are in this position, who are divorcing somebody they believe to be a narcissist, have you ever, has it always gone to final, final, um the yeah, final hearing can't speak today. Has it ever been a position where you've been able to reach an agreement earlier than that? Because my experience has been that, generally, because there's this I need to win situation, negotiating is incredibly difficult and even even at FDR, which is the middle hearing, they're not willing to give anything at all. There's no, there's no negotiating because there's no, there's no giving. It's like I'm not going to give you anything.
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, I think a lot of them do, but not no, I don't think. I do think that we have quite often been able to negotiate assessment at FDR, and I think that the reason for that is they know that they're going to be cross-examined, so they know that we, you know, if we've, if we've got enough evidence that we'll run a case of conduct. So they know that we, you know, if we've, if we've got enough evidence that we'll run a case of conduct. So they know, at that point they'll probably become unstuck, and more often than not, they've probably got someone like a barrister representing them at that point, as well as a solicitor, and because of their personality, they want to look as if they are being reasonable to people who they see as equally as powerful or, you know, is equally as respectful as them. So quite often, though, that we will be able to reach a settlement at FDR not always, like you said, and and and sometimes victims also want that opportunity to be in court as well, because it's really difficult to establish a conduct case, and I was thinking about this earlier that I have to prepare whether or not someone's going to say that that they want, you know, someone's behavior to be taken into account very early on in proceedings. So I have to outline that in the first document and for me, and then a court has to make a decision really at the first appointment as to whether or not they think that it will reach in a high threshold. And that's only a 35, 40 minute court hearing where really it's used for directions. We have no idea really the full financial picture at that point. So for us to raise that sort of argument at that point is really difficult. And I think that that's probably where Rachel in her blog has found it difficult, where she sort of said that you know it's a broken system. People weren't listening to me at certain points of the you know of proceedings and it is difficult in that sense.
Rachel Ward:
And I do think there are some changes that need to be made and I do think there are changes that are currently being made for us to have as practitioners as well, for us to have a greater understanding of how to run a case of conduct and where that is really important when there's been an economic abuse.
Rachel Ward:
Um, so sometimes, back to your question the victims sometimes want to go to a final hearing as well. It isn't always that they're pushed along, but it is a really costly exercise and that's the difficulty. But if I don't sometimes make an application straight away because people will want to try and exhaust, you know a more amicable approach, they'll end up spending double because they keep trying and then the other person just isn't engaging. So at the moment I do think that that is the best way half the time, and obviously there's private FDRs and things like that now, so we don't always have to wait for us, you know, for the, for a court hearing in the normal sort of procedure. But I do think that you need someone, a third party. I don't think two solicitors with the best interest of both their clients is enough in situations like this yeah, not likely to get there.
Tamsin Caine:
I've got a couple couple of questions from what you've just said. So you talked about running a conduct case. Yeah, just explain what running a conduct case means.
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, so we have legislation that we follow, so it's the Matrimonial Causes Act and we look at factors under Section 25 and in particular Section 25G, which says that we can look at the conduct of a party when looking at the financial settlement and we can complete within the financial information form, the form A, a paragraph to say that we yeah, we can obviously sort of go into it a lot more and we do, but if someone's picking it up, a used to litigant in person, there isn't much time on where we can write down reasons why we think that the court should pay particular attention to the conduct of one party.
Rachel Ward:
But there is a threshold and the threshold is that it's inequitable to disregard and that it's gross and obvious. And that it's gross and obvious which is really difficult to define and, like I said, and I think that a lot of practitioners even don't realise, don't fully understand the sort of that concept, and it is just case law that that's sort of balanced upon. So we obviously we have the option of running a conduct case and we can include things like, you know, economic abuse, financial abuse, anything where we think that that's had an impact on that other party's ability to look after themselves financially, that people need to realise, though, that there it isn't. It isn't for us to make them, it isn't for the financial courts to look at them and find them guilty.
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, that behavior. It's just for them to look at whether or not it's something to be considered when we're reaching an agreement on finances, and I think that's the fine balance of the victims understanding that, and also the practitioners also understanding, though, that, even though, yes, they're not there to to find whether or not that person is guilty, if it is something that's important and is going to have a bearing on how that other person has been able to financially look after themselves and contribute and will be able to look after themselves in the future, then it's something that must be included. Um, and it isn't just that we should just be batting them out and saying, oh well, you should be going to the police about that or you should be going to get a normal station order about that, because I think that quite often, you know that we can be guilty to sort of say this isn't the right forum for it.
Rachel Ward:
Finances but it is
Tamsin Caine:
Sometimes it is and sometimes should be on. Should be on that form 100%. I'm gonna just ask you another question. Uh, non-molestation order. You mentioned that a second ago. So there are some orders. So I know um rachel talks in her blog about the broken legal system and about how she didn't feel in a position to fight her ex on an even keel because she didn't have access to money and so on. What, what's a normalization order? What? Or because there are other things that can be done and put into place before we get to the fda fdr final hearing, what are those things that we should be considering or that victim survivors could consider with their legal team putting into place at kind of in quite an early stage?
Rachel Ward:
so, first of all, there is a non-molestation order which you can apply for. There's no court fee. You can do it as well online through the national centre of domestic abuse uh, victim support abuse group. Uh, they have special legal professionals who will take you to court. There will will be no fee. So if you're eligible to do that, then that's the way that you should approach it. Obviously, there's solicitors as well, like me, who can assist and who've had a lot of experience of making those applications. So they are immediate orders where the court will grant it without any notice to the other party to say that they can't come into contact with them, they can't intimidate them, can't damage property. Then, alongside that, there's a consideration as to whether or not they could come within a certain distance of them, and sometimes that lends its hand to us making applications for occupation orders. So they are more difficult to obtain and can be seen as quite draconian because we are somewhat ousting them from the property. But if there's a need to do that, then that's something else that we're there and can assist with. I don't know how much these charities do with the help with occupation orders. I know that they do with the normal station orders, but I'm not sure whether or not they have as much experience with occupation orders. But then after that, the other applications that I wanted to discuss was things like the maintenance pen and suit application. So, like we said and I think Rachel says it that she didn't have the financial support, she didn't have all the financial resources to be able to pay for legal support. So her husband was a high earner. He'd spent £200,000, I think she said, on his legal fees, whereas she was dripping her solicitor £25 here and just to get some, some sort of help and doing a lot on her own. But we can make applications before, during, obviously, the the financial dispute, during the separation, before any final orders are made for financial support. And we can. What we do is we complete a schedule of outgoings and compare that to their income and any shortfall we would be saying should be met by the financially stronger party. So we always explore that. The other thing is legal services payment orders. So quite often we apply to court to ask that they pay the weaker financial parties legal fees and more often than not, if the financial resources are there, then those applications are successful, as long as you've exhausted the methods of payment.
Rachel Ward:
Litigation loans, support from family. Litigation loans, you know, support from family. If there's nothing like that that's available, which quite often there isn't, because they might not be named on the family home or you know it might be that it's a business that's got all the money in, but you know they're in rented or there isn't much equity in the property. So sometimes it's quite difficult for people to get litigation loans. There is that option for us to be able to apply for those, and so there is financial support and we will explore all those options with our clients to make sure that they aren't the weaker party once they separate that. They might have been the weaker party during the marriage or during the relationship, but we'll put them on an equal footing and make sure that they have just as strong of a legal team and advisors and everyone else around them to be able to make informed decisions that's brilliant, because I think that's really important.
Tamsin Caine:
I think a lot of people feel that they need to represent themselves and that they, as you say, as a litigant in person, so that they're not having the the legal, same legal support and they're up against somebody who's got the best lawyers, the best well, not necessarily the best, but the most expensive lawyers. Yeah, you know the the big kind of London guys who you see on the telly and you know and I think it's intimidating.
Rachel Ward:
It is, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it's really difficult because the people who've left these relationships are, you know, their confidence is probably at their lowest and to come across like you know, against someone like that, then they are just going to accept unfair settlements because they haven't got the financial resources to value things either. And it is costly. We can't get away from the fact that it's it's it's emotionally exhausting, it's costly, and but you, if you've got the right team around you, we can just we can make it easier and we can, we can resolve it faster. I think
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely definitely um.
Tamsin Caine:
In the blog, Rachel talks about um, the preparation of her first barrister, who she didn't feel was was fully up to speed. Um, and she talks about the FDR. Um, for those people who are listening, who have never been through the court process, can you just talk a little bit about what the FDR is and why it's so important that the barristers are up to speed and how they can make sure that their barristers are up to speed? What should be happening to ensure that their barrister is as fully informed as possible in preparation for the FDR?
Rachel Ward:
Yes, of course that's a lot of questions, sorry, I can cope, I think. So there is normally three court hearings. There's a first appointment, which I just discussed before, which is more directions. So you go to court, you say, right, OK, well, we've looked at the financial disclosure and we want to raise a questionnaire. We want to. We don't agree on the value of the family home. We want someone to come in and so that you know to give a valuation that we both agree on. We've got business. We need to get, you know, an accountant to come in and value that business. So that's that appointment.
Rachel Ward:
When you get to FDR you should have all that information and it's it's used as an opportunity to put forward all the evidence without any sort of examination or cross-examination, um for the court to give some sort of indication as to what they think a fair settlement would be. So they will look at the value of everything. They will look at, you know, potentially things that people have included in there for me, the questionnaire and they will say, right, OK, well, we've looked at discuss the fact that she says that she found it really difficult that they hadn't prepared, that they you know that they didn't have the right paperwork and things like that, and that she then, I think, used the final hearing for the opportunity to be able to prepare more thoroughly. Now I would hope, if you had a decent solicitor and that solicitor had fully, you know, briefed council that they should have had all the paperwork ready for you to be able to use the FDR like a final hearing. So it's quite unusual and surprising that she found herself Well, I don't know if it's unusual, but in my cases I don't know obviously, across you know, across the sort of when other solicitors have been acting that you should be able to use that opportunity properly to be able to negotiate a settlement without then having the cost of having a final hearing, Because a final hearing will most likely be two or three days with a barrister who's probably costing two or three thousand pounds a day, you know.
Rachel Ward:
And so if you can use the FDR as a final hearing, then that's what it's, that's what it's there for
Tamsin Caine:
yeah, so the the responsibility of ensuring that the barrister is fully prepped?
Tamsin Caine:
does that lie with the solicitor? Are they? Are they supposed to make sure that the barrister has all the paperwork and is also also fully up to speed on on the case and and any issues that have been arising in the case?
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, and I think that's why it's sometimes important to get a barrister early, even if your solicitor is going to potentially attend the first appointment or, you know, is generally running the case. I think if you can get your team early so they can fully understand all the facts, rather than your barrister picking up the papers two or three days before having a case that's quite similar the day before that, you know, I think that that's a benefit for everyone to get your legal team early around you to fully understand, especially when you're dealing with someone who's leaving, someone with narcissistic personality disorder, and explaining to the barrister and there's a lot of barristers now who who are fully equipped to be able to deal with cases like this up and down the country. You know I've got barristers that I'll refer to in London, birmingham and in Manchester who fully understand how to approach people like this. But they have to know and and quite often if your solicitor isn't understanding you and doesn't think that you've got enough of a, you know a case to run condo, then it isn't going to be referred to in the papers, it is going to be very basic papers. This, you know.
Rachel Ward:
Property is worth x, this business is worth y. They've been married for 20 years and they've got two children and no mention, yeah, of anything to do with why the relationship broke down and you know, and potentially the abuse that's continued post separation
Tamsin Caine:
so is it as a victim survivor?
Tamsin Caine:
you need to. If you don't feel that your solicitor is briefing your barrister fully, is there anything you can you can do about that, or
Rachel Ward:
I think, arrange a conference before you're hearing you.
Rachel Ward:
We can do. We often do them remotely now, so it doesn't have to be, you know, at great expense. Um, I think it's important to have that confidence in your legal team and you're only going to get that by meeting them and discussing things with them and you know and being able to explain how you feel and what you think is important,
Tamsin Caine:
Brilliant love it.
Tamsin Caine:
Um, and we talked earlier and and I know this is a this is something that that rachel's talked about is the the belief in the system. Now, you mentioned earlier people that sometimes people want to try and get everything done through mediation. They want to try and just use solicitors. They don't want to apply to the courts because we know that that's a costly process and I know you talked about sometimes it's necessary. If you feel that you're in this situation where the other person's messing about to apply to the court to get that, to get things moving, how would you ever try other alternatives up front and how do you know how, how do you get the sense very early on that actually this needs, this just needs to go to the courts because the other person is not going to play ball.
Rachel Ward:
I think that I normally can assess it from a response, from a first letter. So it doesn't mean that when I say we're automatically applying to court, that I meet the client and I fill out the paperwork on the first day and I have to go the following day, you know I'll meet the client, I'll understand obviously what the client and I fill out the paperwork on the first day and I have to call the following day. You know I'll meet the client, I'll understand obviously what they want and I always follow down the streets. I always say to them I work for you. Because they come to me and they're so intimidated and they think that I'm going to be really bullish and you know, tell them how that they need to run their cases. But, like I said to you, everyone wants different things. So I always say to them you know I'll work for you and I'll send them the first letter. I always send to them to check because they know whether or not you know that sentence is going to aggravate that person, you know, or that my tone's too nice or my tone's too aggressive, and then we'll work together on the initial letter and so quite often it'll be, you know, a couple of drafts before it's initially sent out. But the response is indicative as to how then I'll run the case.
Rachel Ward:
If I have a letter back from a solicitor or from the person and they are just, you know, mudslinging and not really getting anywhere, then I'll then sort of look to alternatives. Mediation isn't appropriate anyway when there's been domestic abuse, so we quite often can bypass that anyway. But we'll decide whether or not there's any point in entering into voluntary disclosure, and sometimes there is. But more often than not if I enter into voluntary disclosure then I get a four me, me back, even though they've asked for financial disclosure, saying TBC, tbc, tbc. So it is just a delaying tactic. So at that point for definite, if I get something then and they've wanted to push it to that point I make the application, because then I'm only updating the disclosure. I'm not having to do for me all over again. I have got the 12 months and it is going to be that we're making the application. So we've only got to top it up by another three months or whatever before we have that direction from the court.
Rachel Ward:
So I'm always just conscious of people's costs and I always say to people when they say oh, how much is it going to cost? It's really difficult because I have to say, well, it depends how the other party engages and it depends on how far we get through the process and what you can agree on and what you can't agree on. But I also say, it's the time that I spend, so you can also be quite savvy. You know you only send me one email. You know, don't send me 15 which you could copy and paste into one, because it is just time half the time, and I will always update you. You know if there's something coming in and things like that. So it is also you just having that element of trust and and solicitors, you know, not just collating loads of documents that are completely unnecessary as well. You know, I do need to understand a little bit, so I might ask for a few. You know whatsapp messages or emails, but I don't need a year's worth because, again, I'm just I'm wasting your time. Yeah absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
You mentioned that you don't feel that mediation is appropriate for, um, for victims, survivors of abuse, um, and it's. Does that count for any mediation? So you wouldn't even engage in something like hybrid mediation.
Rachel Ward:
So I was going to say that I did think hybrid mediation, but that's a very new concept and it is only something that we have only been sort of exploring more recently. Uh, we have had one recently at hill dickinson and it was really successful, um, because the mediator can hold privileges. So that's the difference, um, and and it's worked and we've reached a settlement using hybrid mediation. So I do think that that when I said, yeah, it's not a blanket, not, it's not appropriate, there are, there are options, um, to explore that I would obviously canvas with any clients at the beginning.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely no. That's. That's great, and earlier on, when we were talking, you mentioned um private FDRs and and I think, potentially arbitration is also a consideration that you that you might bring into these cases to potentially bring them to our close earlier on. Obviously, the post-separation abuse and the emotional drain on anybody going through these processes is horrific and if there's the finances to enable them to do it, would you say that something like a private FDR and arbitration are appropriate and, if so, could you just tell us briefly a little bit more about both those options?
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, so a private FDR is an alternative to the traditional court route in the context of divorce and financial proceedings. What we'll do is it will be similar to the way that I'd explained previously an FDR, except that we would have instructed a private judge. So quite often it's a barrister and they will sit as a private judge and will be able to attend either a chambers or clients will often come and meet in our offices and the other party and will conduct a court hearing in a more private setting and they will provide what's called a neutral evaluation and again advise what they think would be a it was if it was being held in a proper um court environment. So the benefits of that is obviously the flexibility. We can sort of instruct someone quite quickly, um, and at the moment we can be waiting for a final hearing for sort of six, seven, eight months. So it does allow people to be be able to get to this process a lot quicker.
Rachel Ward:
And, but it is obviously it can be expensive. We're having to pay for a judge, but it does. There's less maybe sort of letters going to and fro you know to and fro and in between, so it can be quite there's cost considerations, you know, to and fro and in between, so it can be quite it. There's cost considerations, you know, and benefits to to doing it both ways, but if people can afford to do it that way, then it definitely reduces the stress. Um, and because obviously the longer it goes on, I think it's like anyone it's always the unknown that's scary, isn't it? And I think once you've got that knowledge, then you can then make decisions as to whether or not to put forward offers at that point as well and to potentially reach a settlement. So, like court, it's non-bindinginding the outcome of a private FDR, so you can still go off to final hearing, but I think it's an effective and efficient way of dealing with things,
Tamsin Caine:
And arbitration is similar to a private FDR, isn't it?
Tamsin Caine:
But equivalent to a final hearing, but that does give a binding.
Rachel Ward:
Yeah, it does.
Rachel Ward:
that's the difference between arbitration
Tamsin Caine:
so, again, those things are worth considering if you want, if you, if the finances are available and you want to speed things up again, it's yeah, so it's just a neutral third party who is chosen, you know, by the disputing parties to be able to to guide them into reaching a settlement.
Rachel Ward:
But, like you said, arbitration, the the difference is is that it can be binding. Yeah, brilliant.
Tamsin Caine:
We're coming to the end of our time together, Rachel. That feels like it's absolutely flown. I think we said before we started recording that we we think we could probably have talked all day about all the issues that were brought up in the um in the blog by Rachel. But yes, to be um focusing on on some of the things that we think could be done differently, to give people a bit of positive news, that that there are other options available to you and it doesn't have to go in the way that unfortunately it did for Rachel, if you get the right team together. Is there anything you want to add before we finish up?
Rachel Ward:
No, not really. I just think that the first step is obviously the bravest. I think once you've made that decision to leave that party, then you know that you've taken a step to a brighter future. And it isn't easy, but there are people obviously around to support you through this who've spent a lot of time sort of honing their skills to understand and to be able to guide you through this you know, as best as we can.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, well said, absolutely right. And if you do want to get in touch with Rachel, if you are in this position and you need some legal support in leaving or in going through the divorce process, please do get in touch with her. All Rachel's details of how to contact her will be in the show notes below, so please look them up and get in touch with Rachel. If you do need some excellent support and if you have found this episode useful, please do like, subscribe, share, give us a lovely five-star review, because it does help us to get the podcast out to more people and helps us to help more people. So thank you for listening and we'll see you next time, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic.
Tamsin Caine:
I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now it's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group, and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.