Coparenting to the best of your ability

Tamsin talks to Mr Divorce Coach himself, Tom Nash. He, his ex, his girlfriend and her ex have managed to set up coparenting relationships as good as they get. We talk about their story, how they got there and how you can do the same, keeping the children front and centre.

Tom Nash - aka Mr Divorce Coach, is an internationally certified Coach, specialising in Divorce, Separation & Family Coaching.
He is a child of divorce, a divorcee himself, a father, step-father & successful co-parent of his own blended family.
Tom works with men, women & couples, assisting in their emotional well-being, positive mindset and practical support through a clients divorce/separation.

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at or arrange a free initial meeting using She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…

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(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)

Tamsin Caine 0:06
Hello, and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast. In series five, my guests will be helping you to come out of your divorce, dissolution, or big breakup and create a different you move forward with the things that you want to be able to achieve and think about things differently. I really hope you enjoy this series. I'm your host, Tamsin Caine. And we'll be meeting some fabulous guests. I hope you enjoy them. If you do have any suggestions as to for the guests that we could have on then we'd be more than delighted to hear from you. I hope you enjoy Hello, and I'm delighted to be joined today by the fabulous Tom Nash, Mr. Divorce Coach, but you can't a there's no better introduction than this yellow chair. So Tom is an internationally certified coach specialising in divorce, separation and family coaching. He is a child of divorce a divorcee himself, Father, stepfather and successful co parent have his own blended family and some of those things that we're going to have a chat a bit more about today. But just to let you know that Tom works with men, women and couples in his practice assisting their emotional well being positive mindset and practical support through clients, separation and divorce. And it's it's so good to hear that you work with men and women as well as couples because I think so many people kind of just work with one gender, it's it's the miss out on so much I feel

Tom Nash 1:51
You do you do. That was one of the very first questions I always get asked by other partners like lawyers, mediators, etc. is So do any work with guys? No, not at all. It was the brand for Mr. Divorce Coach was it was an accident, and in all honesty, as was the logo, that, but it was just to differentiate because I was at the time the only guy doing and want more men to come and do this as well. I think it's really good to change to help others. That yeah, that I've worked with men, women couples. And, again, it kind of goes sometimes sometimes there's new advice. And a lot of the client bases is male orientated. But at the moment, as of this very moment that these dates, the vast majority of clients are female. Because again, everybody likes to work with different people for different reasons.

Tamsin Caine 2:38
Yeah, absolutely. I do. I think there's so much in it. That's it's personality driven. And you need to click with that person that you're working with, I think especially in the type of work that you're doing, when we're we're kind of digging deep into the emotional side of what all this brings up for us. It's gonna help that you that you get on with a person, why do people? Where do people find you

Tom Nash 3:06
everywhere? All over the place. So Instagram, less so Facebook didn't really do much with Facebook, but predominantly my clients either come from, if it's online, it's usually kind of Instagram or LinkedIn, or from the podcast and YouTube. But again, the vast majority of referrals come from sort of family lawyers, mediators, financial planners, etc. Other areas of support for people going through divorce or separation, or now that I'm a few years in might be starting to get more referrals from past clients, as well, which is, I think, just a natural progression, isn't it as you grow your business and your practice?

Tamsin Caine 3:48
Yeah, definitely, definitely knew you do sometimes hear a family lawyers having repeat business, but we want to stay away from that if we possibly can. So in the introduction, we were mentioning that that you've had quite a lot of personal experience in divorce. And one of the things that we haven't really got to grips with, on this map divorce podcast is co parenting and blended families. And I know that that personal experience that you've got, as well as, as I'm sure through your coaching as well. I'd love to start off with with talking about co parenting because this is this can be a really tricky, tricky topic. Dantec

Tom Nash 4:33
Absolutely, yeah. There's just so much going on for everybody and it's a lot of the work is having to help rebuild new forms of trust, new ways of communicating boundaries and structures around that that positively impact the situation and utilising the skills and tools around them, whether it be technical or non technical related, as well as how they're really how they want that seat. situations to be how they wanted to pan out whilst you also might be dealing with, quite typically when working with a couple, you may find that obviously, when there's one party that's predominantly made the decision or this is a decision to be led by one party, a lot of the time, we're dealing with very different experiences polar opposites, and trying to trying to help them work towards definite greater good as it were, whilst working different experiences for each of them

Tamsin Caine 5:26
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I've worked with couples very occasionally in the, in the work that I do, and I have to say that take my hat off to you, because I think it's some of the most, most difficult work that we do. So I suppose if we start now, it'd be not quite at the beginning, but kind of How soon should because we hear talk of parenting plans. And and I'm not sure that if it if everybody who talks about them knows what they are or understands what their purpose is. So shall we start with that with what, what is a parenting plan? What does it do include?

Tom Nash 6:10
Okay, so the parenting plan very simply is helping you to build a structure and a basis in which you can work to essentially put the children's needs front and centre, whilst also creating your own version of balance. One of the phrases I hear all the time that I'm sure many other people do is about 5050. For me, co parenting is about 100 100. And it's helping you build something that's uniquely tailored to each of your scenarios and situations. So where the children are on which days, it's called pickups, drop offs, everything through to have an equal set of school uniforms so on and so forth to kind of try and refrain from creating the suitcase kid as it were. But even through to how you're going to communicate with one another about the bigger immediate maybe emergency things little Timmy fall over at school and bumped his head through to future situations birthdays Christmases, holiday, so on and so forth. We will keyword though to it that your parenting plan is about the uniqueness of it. So again, there are in many instances there's a need for and a benefit for mirroring certain house rules, say in the two homes. That might be things like say bedtimes. However, there's also sometimes a uniqueness to each individual situation about where that might actually might not be pertinent. So as an example, I had a particular couple of working with where one of the parents parent a was saying, well, at parent B's house, they must have the same bedtime. Apparently live five minute walk from the school, parent aid lived over a 30 minute drive away. So she there's a bit of a disparity in terms of what time the kids need to get up, have breakfast, brush, the tea, so on and so forth and leave the school. So actually, there's maybe a need to adapt things like the bedtime. So the key thing about with a parenting plan is helping you to both build a structure to baseline to work from. But also looking at where there needs to be future adaptations, as the children get older, work situations changed. The pandemic was a huge thing that helped. That one helps, but also didn't help a lot of parents and CO parents were all the sudden data parents and maybe didn't do the school run is now available. So again, it's also looking for opportunity for evolvement and change. So it's about helping you build a core structure of basis to work from in terms of how you can set out that plan, how you can adapt how you can adapt, it evolves what the children's needs.

Tamsin Caine 8:44
Yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the most important things that, to me that you said, during that was about it being adaptable, as the children's needs get older, I mean, my children were, let me think, live from 12. When I got to Boston, they're now 1718 Their needs now compared with their needs, when they were kind of towards the end of primary school, we're dramatically different from from both of us, and and in terms of the support they needed. And in terms of kind of where they're going to be, you know, if I told my kids where they were going to be their response would not be favourable.

Tom Nash 9:29
You know, I've got I've got a 16 year old so yeah, I definitely know that. But I think it's even at about evolvement that the parents, again, I'll just use my own experience rather than using clients want. When myself my ex wife, we're married on works in the city I left at 630 morning I got home at a best seven usually eight o'clock at night. So mindful, I did do the school runs and etc. When I was shortly afterward, but a year or two after we were divorced. separated. And I started missing almost complete my coaching, training, etc. That changed I now work for myself, I can be adaptable. And actually it wasn't about making these big changes, actually, it is now also how it could be as a support resource and mechanism for mining financially, how could that be a benefit that supports her? Because if she wanted to work more, or she wanted to do whatever it was that she did with her time, that now actually I can be an additional resource and additional support. And that kind of evolvement that you're talking about adaptation as well is, whilst No, I didn't use, I didn't previously always take the children to school, what it once was, isn't necessarily what it will always be. And again, he was talking about the kids needs actually, the boys wanted me to take them to school a couple of days a week, but they also still wanted mommy to take to school a couple of days a week. So it's about right, so how do we work this that puts them in front and centre rather than in the middle? And actually, how does it also work for both of us where we can support one another?

Tamsin Caine 10:58
Yeah, I love that. And I think that's one of the things that I really admire about your account in your social media is that it's really clear that it that your family is, is all the kids and all the parents, it's not just, this is our bid, and this is their bid. And then there's some kids that come in and out, it's you know, it's kind of a big thing, you know, everybody's needs to try to be concerned, I read, you know, I'm not naive, I know that social media puts on the best side of things. And I'm sure there are times when you're, you know, where there's crosswords, but I think you you quite clearly it's really important to you that that the kids are front and centre and that it's, it's a team, it's a team effort, that was taken some work to achieve.

Tom Nash 11:57
That's one word for it. Yeah. team that is just I think that's one of the things that I've tried to get across quite a lot is again, as I've just mentioned about what it always wants isn't necessarily what it will always be. So I've had people before clients, lawyers, etc friends, whatever, even family that have said about well, it's alright for you guys. Because you will get on you have your family with a parent WhatsApp chat. And then when the kids are in, etc. Everyone's great, because you guys will get on we do now. But we didn't always right, I filled out the C 100. I we've been through failed attempts at mediation in my hands. We argued with the disputed with the barrister, about which days here and who has the passports and all that sort of stuff. Really, really challenging those emails or text messages that we send off to one another where we're pretending to be a lawyer without prejudice, via for dear full name, rather than Hey, hey doing, by the way, XYZ. But so we've been through that. And again, that what it was was not not always be symptoms I keep saying about. But it takes does take effort. So I run my my coaching practice on three core values, which is understand, evolve and improve. Everybody wants the improvement piece. Everybody wants the end outcome and product, I want it to be better. Okay. The bit that I helped them with does the other stage the improvement they can do themselves? First of all that working with bad if what they're doing at the moment isn't working, the old saying, If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, if it is broke, you need to fix it. So that requires involvement, it needs to change, it needs a different approach a different way of doing things. But to do that, you still need to work back and understand what didn't work in the first place. And actually what resources whether that be people, technology, whatever it might be. How do you what do you need to understand that you were with the issues before so how to not make those same mistakes handled work better with each other. But it does require that change and some point that we recently was having the same conversation or similar conversation. And I said it did take all four of us because I think as you know, my, my ex wife's boyfriend is my girlfriend's ex husband, so the parents have effectively swapped around. So we have to find a way for it to work, we have to find a better way. Otherwise, that could be really, really challenging for older kids being caught in the middle where you've got the alternate set of parents. And I'd say it does take effort from anybody. So it doesn't need to be a contribution. That usually doesn't need to start with someone or a group of starting to do something differently, approaching things differently. A consistency of olive branches mending fences really You will recall, and creating another list an opportunity to do things differently to do them better. Equally, it still takes the other party to engage in that process as well. So you've got, there's got to be at some point of willingness and a motivation. Say, You know what, let's, let's try this, let's get. And the other thing I always say to people is get through the awkwardness, because there's going to be some hard first there's going to be some real challenging, weird, strange environments to be in, if you're, if you want to get to that phase of co parenting, where it's more CO friending in some respects. But it's about working through it and not keep working from the past, or positions of blame, etc. It's about how do you positively move forward?

Tamsin Caine 15:50
I think that's really interesting. And I think that, like you say, you know, this, Oh, it's okay with you, for you. You know, as I say, we see the good stuff, you know, you clearly weren't posting pictures of when, you know, when things weren't, might go into well, at the beginning, when you're trying to find your way. And what a think that is, is really useful to think about is like, are you actually benefiting from the war that's happening at the moment? You know, if you're fighting with the other parent, is that doing you any good? Is that like, does that feel nice? does it sit well with you? Or actually, if we can work through that anger and get through to the other side and be in a position like the one you're in? Wouldn't that feel so much better? You know, even if you're going to scrap the putting the kids front and centre that will love even if you forget all about that, and just thinking to yourself? Surely it's better to be in a position where you've got a reasonable relationship with the other parent?

Tom Nash 16:55
Absolutely. Anyone that is currently or has previously been through this situation knows just how physically draining all of the emotional and a mindset and everything called as Venezuelan but as what I call the world's something game of chess, because you are thinking not just two or three, but 47 moves down the road. If I do this, what's the repercussion? What are they going to say? How are they going to come back at this? How is this going to be used against me? All of that, that, yeah, that adversarial anticipation. But think of it from what you just said, remove the kids for a moment, just think about yourself, but even from a self care perspective, like, do you want to increase your sleep? Do you want to feel better about you do you want to have less stress in the workplace, there is on doing a thing at the moment with corporates and HR within organisations around creating a family transitions policy. Because the impacts on the workplace are vastly more impacted than let's say the traditional grief cycle of loss of a loved one, when you lose someone and you go for that traditional grief cycle of lost a loved one a friend or family member, etc. The vast impacts that are so much bigger in terms of the impacts of workplace and productivity that impacts to not just the individual, your staff member, but their team, as well in terms of their productivity, sick days, so on and so forth. Then actually, it has a huge impact on every aspect of your life. So even if you think about it from a self care perspective, would I How long gonna carry this around for how long do is to keep impacting my everyday life that I even have to take a different route to go to Aldi because I don't want to drive down the road that they're on or live near or anything like that. And I did that for months, I'm staying at a particular part of the town that I live in, purely for fear of not wanting to run into someone. But I don't have to do that now I can go straight to our knees and as much as

Tamsin Caine 18:58
That sounds much better. I am I I think that I might have considered that. But my ex has been moved about 400 yards away. So who our local shop was the same local shop, the kids could walk, walk to his house. But interestingly, you know, I think you don't have to be really good mates with the with the other person. You don't have to live in their pockets. You don't have to go out for beers with the more got dinner with them. But just being able to have that communication just to be able to ask them to help you out when you're struggling to be able to talk to them about issues that are affecting or impacting your kids. And I can give you a personal example of that. So our son's learning how to drive at the minute and it's proving it's proving difficult for him is he's one of these kids has never found anything hard. And he is it he you know he can drive fine, but he finds it collapsing into a jealous heap whenever he gets into a driving exam. So, so he failed test three. And, and I found my acceptance that we, you know, we need to do something about this, he clearly needs more driving lessons to this point by refusing. In between, well, I was gonna say between the two of us now I'm actually going to give him full credit, my ex managed to persuade Charlie to stand down, stop being an idiot and have some more driving lessons so that he could say that he could learn and, you know, if you've not got that relationship, you can't do that. And, you know, we're not at the point where we'd, we'd go out for a pint together or whatever, but to be able to be involved in in our kid's life so that things happen for the better because we can communicate, make the make the world a difference.

Tom Nash 20:59
I mean, it doesn't, all the things I would say because coca and especially cup will come to me as well. I always say to them, I don't just take my background because we get on doesn't it doesn't coparenting doesn't mean have to mean friends, great if you want to even have to. It's I was thinking I love words anyway. But I was thinking about the prefix of anything was co it's collaborative, as cooperative as cohesive, it's working together to support that outcome. And for those people that you say they're in the centre, and for each of you, it doesn't necessarily have to mean friends. So again, I obviously we've about think about the use of resources around you. So one in terms of who else can you go and model we all learn just like using the Charlie from driving lessons, he's having driving lessons, because he's modelling how to do something. So who do we surround ourselves with in terms of a support network? And who are we learning and modelling from, if you are surrounding yourself with friends, family members, colleagues, whatever it might be, who have had litigious, contentious, still highly challenging situations with their spouse over co parenting, and then maybe one parallel parenting, for example. That's maybe not necessarily the positive support network to be around. Go and look at who else you know, that actually has a more positive parent relationship. How do they do it? ask them the question, what do you do? What do you happen when conflict arises? When you don't agree on something? How do you approach that go and ask these people learn from other people how they do it? And find a way that uniquely what suits you even down to things like I did an episode recently about co parenting tech. We live in a modern world when you talk about the tech issues we've been having with emails and Prime's the last couple of days. But again, use what's there around you so I had it wasn't working with both parties only working with one but I did want to go who's foremost faxing for you at the time former spouse was contacting them through about 10 different mediums, email at work, personal email, mobile phone, phone in the office, WhatsApp text, Snapchat, you name it. Hoping tailing homing pigeon, every kind of considered old school telegram. Every director the main light was so then it was about okay, well, they didn't want to get into parallel parenting they want to be cooperative with him definitely not going to be friends. So then it was about Okay, so how do we lessen the impact to you parent a to less than that, and how do we centralise it using business terminology with them with how do we centralise it and streamline and make it more efficient? So what about a co parenting app? I'm not going to mention the ones it's not about plugging them but a particular one that

Tamsin Caine 23:51
you can go back and you can go back and listen.

Tom Nash 23:55
James our family wizard just that one example of being able to have everything in terms of messaging with the tone metre and all that transfers funds like evidence, your co parenting planning, everything's in this one space, alleviating the rest of your world so that when you're sitting there at 910 at night with your new partner or with kids or whatever it might be even those ping you know, to WhatsApp. You don't don't don't want to look at Oh my God, who is it? What they're going to say what now, if it's all centralised here in this one area, it leaves the rest of your everyday modern life of emails, texts, WhatsApp, Snapchat, etc. Free to help lessen the anxieties and impacts to you. But also keeps it recorded and centralise certain things like that is how we use the tools around you. How can you make it more efficient? For all of you?

Tamsin Caine 24:46
Yeah, yeah. Is that isn't it? Absolutely. It's, it's, it's just made. It makes the world a happier place for everybody, doesn't it if this this stuff all works. Something that struck me when you were talking getting about, about the people who were around you and about kind of what you might learn from, from the people who are around you. And you might not want to answer this. The day that completely fine just like me, no, but I know, I'm a child of divorced parents as well. And I know that I learned how I didn't want my divorce to go. And I didn't want my, my co parents and my kids to go, it just wondered if you're, if you had an experience that was positive that you wanted to model from your parents or, okay, believe the opposite.

Tom Nash 25:40
My parents are awesome, I wouldn't change it. If my being for anything, it brought me to where I am now. But they did have a contentious experience. I'm not gonna go into all of their bit too much. But that was yeah, that was that was one that, like you, I wanted to take lessons from, how could I do it differently. And again, even that, in itself is positive. And the other thing is, and I have to kind of give a bit of a caveat. And I suppose given even the juices. I'm 139. As my parents in our late 60s, early 70s, that generation, effectively were the first real generation of mass produced divorce, separation, co parenting men, co parenting, and I grew up in a blended family. But in 1986, that wasn't a phrase now. And again, given to get to give them the news, they were modelling and learning from the people that are around them who hadn't been through that process. So going back a generational to the viewpoint towards divorce and how society was then and whether that be religious or societal impact, so on and so forth. All these things, it was split up, parents grew up, the children don't grow up with one parent, again, typically with mom back then I actually got my dad. But it became very adversarial and you want to be friends, you separate and divorce, you go separate ways, you try and annihilate each other, and you barely ever speak again, in the in the most for the most part. But again, so they didn't have anything to learn from they didn't have any positive models or experiences at all. Look how they're doing it. And again, I think that's just the thing where we always want our kids to do better than we did I want my kids to do better than than I have, or the we have, I should say that we've we as the parents have all spoken to all the kids before to say like when you grow older, if you have kids, you get separate, you get divorced, etc. You now know this is the way to not do things actually take what we've done, and even improve on that make that better. The best inventions aren't brand new, they just evolved into of existing things. So take what we've done, make it better. Having that gauntlet down as it was so but yes, I am not supposed to kind of answer that the wider sphere and one of the other reasons of how we kind of recognise how to do this is actually my fellow co parenting stepdad. So the dad on the other side of the other parents house. His parents were separated, divorced, and they get on famously, and they've all supported each other. And they're really good friends. They have barbecues and all the rest of it. That was completely alien to me. That was like, Whoa, how can you do that? So again, it was just looking and going, Oh, actually, it can be done differently. There are people out there that work through their stuff, and can come at it differently. So yeah, but I hadn't really witnessed that before.

Tamsin Caine 28:42
Yeah, no, me neither. It's, it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. To my parents, you know, it was 1984 ish. For me as well, you know, that. We were in a small town in Derbyshire think my mum and dad were the only divorce that surrounds and there. Yeah, well, you know, it was a whole new thing. And they it wasn't something that that they'd ever sort of seen before. So they were finding their own in their own way in the best way possible. And, you know, adore them, adore them both. But you know, wanted a slightly different way for for the way we did things and finished end you know, adversarial and I do think a you know, I know see your resolution badge on your on your screen and No, no, it's something we were talking about before we came on but you know there is the likes of resolution have pushed forward with trying to get more amicable divorce is more non court resolution less adversarial separations and divorces nothing that can only be a good thing for all of this stuff as well. We'll come in towards the end of our time together but before we finished I just I wanted to ask you a question about being a step parent. Because that's that's a job randomly that I did for I was actually a parent. So what was the step? First? But it's, it's a tough job, how have you navigated? How have you navigated things that parents

Tom Nash 30:22
think saying it's challenging or difficult would be a huge understatement is an absolute bloody minefield. But again, I suppose it's a uniquely to the individual. I'm, I've always loved it. I am a big kid. And I think for me, it was one of the things that I was always really conscious about was knowing what that boundary would be for the kids. And because I've been that kid, as well, I kind of had an idea of where and how they might be feeling about things. So it's about recognising that okay, as a step down, step father, to parent, knowing that my situation is very unique and different to the bio parents. But it's also about how to show my kids, Mr. Trump, bonus children's, I call them. Kids because they all bonus. Which is great. But it was also about how do I show them through actions, words, everything, that actually the two most important people in their world of which I have to accept or not? How do I show them that I respect you to those people, even when me and Dad can't stand each other and didn't get out. And I've told this story many times, but every time their dad will be dropping them off. And compounding for the door, I would always make a bit of a beeline. And it's about interest, not interrogation. And I think that's where people go wrong. It's like, right, where have you been? What have you done, can't do that contact their computers, and then started criticising or they shouldn't be doing that. And for me, it's like interest, it's about showing them that I know, this person is one of two of the most important people in their world. And she's certainly a case of like, I can positively how you're delivering something and where that intense coming from, and saying, Oh man, how's it we can do that easier to do, or even little things like if I knew he had a job interview, he changed his car, whatever that is got a new track. That's what he called me like sigma. But it was showing them that I know he's important to them. And that I respect that. And I'm showing an interest on not this not Spanish Inquisition. I'm taking notes to use against them later. But then it was also it kind of carries on from there. But it's also about how to support their relationship as well. Because also as a step parent on the other things that unfortunately, when it's quite a lot is where maybe a step parent isn't necessarily supporting this, that child's relationship with the other bio parents, because they're coming from their own place and their own opinions, their own assumptions, or maybe actual experiences. But again, that audit wants for us doesn't necessarily have to be forever. How do you positively support that how you support that relationship, and help them to keep flourishing and to grow? Because ultimately, it's about the only feedback you'll ever get as a co parent, step parent or anything. You only get that feedback when they're older. Yeah, sometimes and sometimes in the moment I remember almost completely moving my head one night this couple of years ago, and the only my stepdaughter kind of says minimum we're in the living room which is uncovered what boxset of some kind of God came in floods rotations from about 14 Maybe at the time. She came in floods of tears. We were like, what's wrong sweet? And she said, I've just been watching marriage story. Oh god, what's his name? Kylo Ren Adam something and he had just been watching upstairs in a room he came down and floods of tears and she actually not for us. So for me in a moment and she was like, thank you so much for always supporting and making me have that relationship. Because when her and at that moment it was it was able to be a lot easier issue and I don't want to go to death today and frustrated mechanical. Stay here. Also the Michigan message. Actually what she needed was supporting that relationship. Okay, well, that what's going on? Why did you want to go? What's the problem? How do we help you rectify that? How can you engage with daddy but also how can we engage? I call him daddy. But if the kids are there are three kids Daddy's here. But again, it's a mark of respect, appreciation. All that stuff creating a quality and not trying to cause a situation where the children feel they have to choose or make that. But yeah, it's it's not easy. But how hard you want to have it, how successful do you want this to be how hard your work, and anything worth creating or producing is never going to be easy, it's worth the effort. And then we can create environments where they just flee free flow from in and out of the house, or my mom and dad watching in the matches together and stuff like that. It makes the world of difference. And also know you've got these four children in our instance, who have four parents. And we've got four. And all four of us bring a unique set of skills and experience and abilities. I'm not good at science or maths. My ex wife and my girlfriend, both accountants don't mess kids go and talk to them, like dance, a quiet genius, young scientific, or go and speak to Dan, you're saying creative or more emotive ly connected, come and talk to me, they've got all that never twice as much opportunity to go and get the support they need between this group of four parents as opposed to being restricted to

Tamsin Caine 36:19
Lots of boxes text, as is. It's absolutely amazing. The the word that that I was thinking when you were talking was curiosity. Now it's about being curious about what they've been doing and where they've been going not not because they've been with the other parent, even just just the way you'd ask them, if they've been with a mate, or they've been out somewhere else. It's, and having that opportunity to talk about the other parent, in the house that you it's so important. And it's something that, that I remember not having, you know, it was like, you definitely did not knew other parents weren't like when I lived with my mom, when I was with my mom, I didn't you know, you don't you don't talk about the past. And you don't talk about dad, and we actively encourage, like the kids to, I want to, I want to, I want their memories and want them to be able to talk about stuff they remember us all doing together, it's not gone, it's still part of their history. And it's still, it still should be able to be talked about. And I think it's important.

Tom Nash 37:25
So I also say a lot of time around and I'm all for pronouns is all of my LinkedIn, etc. But I always say co parenting has no place for pronouns. Because if you're talking about the other parents, especially to your children, or even not directly to them, but you're referring to your fellow co parent, he him personally, what you're actually doing is consciously devaluing that parent in the child's mind, you're making them less than in their status. If you have always called them mum, mommy, dad, daddy continue to do so. Because it's not about it's about them, not about you. What are the other really important things that she was doing that was juristic it actually really, really helps your co parenting relationship. Because let's be honest, we all like to believe that our little darlings don't do anything. And they are the salt of the earth. But they will play off of each other. And purposely or unintentionally, they will, and little things will come up and little statements, little things, etc. experiences. And if you're in a contentious, litigious, laborious kind of challenging kind of co parenting relationship. And you take each of that as another opportunity to create a stance or a line in the sand or attack or whatever it might be, actually, when you get into a phase where you can collaboratively work together with your co parent and actually challenge that stuff. But to the point where quite often night one of the kids have said or done something about what's happened in the house or what they've done in the house or whatever it might be what someone will the other parents have said. And we know they're pulling some wool over the eyes. There's something not right here. It's so much easier to go. So everything that he said, everything we said, I can call him now and call it the bluff or even as he calls it. so and so said this that is not what I said, Okay, let's be honest. What did you say that? And then actually, they get to realise, right, we can't play the slot of each other. I mean, and it's no different to if you were still together. I remember being a kid and my dad used to do the ironing. Like me, he loved ironing. I don't know why we both be strange, but

Tamsin Caine 39:43
that's for another day that one

Tom Nash 39:46
just unlike me. But I remember as a kid I would walk into the living room or something and dad we do in the morning, get home from school and I'm going to cut chocolate by about no dinner's ready in and out that okay, cool, and slink off upstairs and go and see Mom study a word. She wasn't a smoker of chocolate bar. What did that say? He said it's right to say it's alright. Strange dualism was really Yeah, that's it, it's okay have fun. The kids do that, like they play they play off on one another and for their own advantage. Like they're testing boundaries. That's their job. What's your job as a parent is where you instil them and how you instil them and if you can create an environment where you can actually go get a sanity check that with my fellow co parent, did this happen? No, it did not go. Mom says no. And actually, it helps all of you you've know better how to better support them and it helps them learn those boundaries as well and also where that's mirrored the two homes anyway, I could talk about this for hours

Tamsin Caine 40:46
I could talk to you for literally for hours Tom I know occurs and that's been such a fantastic episode. And you know, I'm sure some of these some of these topics we could definitely revisit again in the future. But for now, I know that our listeners and viewers can get ahold of you at your email address which is kindly behind you anywhere else that they can find you so Instagram, LinkedIn, the best places?

Unknown Speaker 41:18
Yeah, I mean, if you just Google Tom Nash Mr. Divorce Coach, I guarantee you will find me somewhere

Tamsin Caine 41:25
you'll find a big yellow chair on the wall, we'll put the links in the show notes anyway so that so people can get ahold of you if they want to. For anything on divorce coaching, emotional support, or talking about co parenting parenting some of this stuff into action for yourselves Tom, thank you so much for joining me I've really enjoyed today

Tom Nash 41:49
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Tamsin Caine 41:56
I hope you enjoy the episode of the Smart Divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website Also, if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in the journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some foot further support, we do have Facebook group now. It's called separation divorce and dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook search of the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care

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