AMICABLE divorce

Founder of online divorce service Amicable, Kate Daly, joins Tamsin Caine to discuss helping couples to divorce amicably; why this is so important to Kate and led her to create the service.

Kate Daly is a co-founder of amicable. Kate is a divorce expert and helps couples and separated parents navigate divorce and separation amicably. Kate is passionate about changing the way the world divorces and campaigns for fairer divorce laws and access to justiceKate Daly is a co-founder of amicable. Kate is a divorce expert and helps couples and separated parents navigate divorce and separation amicably. Kate is passionate about changing the way the world divorces and campaigns for fairer divorce laws and access to justice





Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at or arrange a free initial meeting using She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd



(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)

Tamsin Caine 0:06
Hello, and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast. In series four, we're going to be talking to various different professionals and others who have gone through divorce, and dissolution of the civil partnership to talk about the future, and how you can start helping things to look much more positively. And we have some fantastic guests lined up. But if there is anything specific that you would like us to cover, please do get in touch. You can contact me through our website, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. Enjoy.

Tamsin Caine 0:55
Hello, and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast. I'm really delighted to be joined today by Kate Daly from Amicable. And I came across a couple a long time ago when I assume when they were first setting up because it was something that was really important to me. As you'll know if you've been listening to podcasts marketforce focuses on helping couples to divorce amicably so the very fact that somebody went away and set up a company with that very name just got all my all my joy and I went to have a look at what they did. So we're going to find much more out about it today. So to introduce Kate properly after her own train wreck divorce, which sounds dreadful, where she spent more than £80,000 in legal fees, Kate realised there had to be a better way. And she teamed up with her friend who is a tech entrepreneur pet Wilson to set up amicable. And our calls purpose is to guide couples through the divorce process with that company and to reach productive agreements that benefit the whole family along with divorce coaches Amicable has helped 1000s of couples untie the knot amicably, which is absolutely amazing. Kate, welcome. Thank you for joining me.

Kate Daly 2:15
Thank you very much that lovely intro, Tamsin.

Tamsin Caine 2:19
That is my pleasure. So tell us a bit more about how amicable came to be? How did you set it up?

Kate Daly 2:30
Well, as you said, in the intro, my divorce was, you know, the absolute antithesis of an amicable one. And we spent a lot of money, a lot of time arguing, and to the detriment of our children and our family. And I think that whole experience was so shocking and so awful, that I came out of that feeling very bruised, and started to think about and reflect on, you know, what had gone wrong, how we'd ended up down that path. And obviously, you know, you have to take responsibility, yourself personal responsibility. But I also started to think about the process itself, and how the process had antagonised the situation and fueled it and made it a lot worse. And I thought, Okay, well, if that process is working against you, from the start, then it's not surprising that when you're both in that emotional state anyway, things can go quite as badly wrong as they did for us. And I started to think about whether or not we could have done things differently and whether or not there would have been a different solution for us. And the more I looked into it, the more I realised that there wasn't really anything out there, and I know there's mediation. But when you get to the end of a mediation, you still have to go away to solicitors to have your documents drafted or to have your document or your agreement reviewed. And that again, seem to be a flashpoint. And, you know, I could imagine that we'd have worked hard in mediation, then only to be, you know, have something whispered in each of our ear saying, Oh, you know, you don't settle for that, or no, you should be doing this, which is kind of what had been going on throughout our experience. And so I started to really think about how I could help people do it differently. And that was really what started me on quite a long road of discovering what a good process would look like and how it would need to be set up. And I tried at first to do it within the legal system. But that wasn't going to happen. So we had to set up it outside of that and do something completely different. But it wasn't just I didn't just come up with the idea of amicable overnight, there was quite a long bit between reflecting on what was in creating amicable that was quite, you know, where we did try as a say, to work with lawyers and to do it from within the system, but it just, we just couldn't get people lawyers particularly to come around to our way of thinking.

Tamsin Caine 4:53
Yes, it's, it's certainly it's certainly a tricky business. Your background isn't in the law. Either is it?

Kate Daly 5:01
No, my backgrounds in counselling psychology, so when I was getting divorced and my sort of professional background to that point, had been working with people going through relationship breakdown, and develop some expertise in helping people navigate the emotional side of relationship breakdown and then restarting their lives and, and trying to not make an assembler pick, pick badly and make similar mistakes kind of thing. So I was, I've been working with individuals and couples, and at the end of their relationships for some time. And during that time, and this was part of that evolution of setting up Amicable during that time, I was approached by a group of solicitors who wanted some help helping their clients navigate divorce and separation, by using a therapist, to get them in a better place to be able to then go on and do their negotiations. So I went from just working in private practice, to working with a group of lawyers. And then I trained in what's called Collaborative Law. So I became what's called a family consultant, where essentially, you are working with a team of professionals to help couples separate in a more amicable and collaborative way. And it's a really, truly wonderful system. But it is cost prohibitive to probably 95, if not more percent of the population, because you have got so many professionals in one room, doing their best to help you do things amicably. But the sheer cost of that is, as I say, it just it just struck me as it was a great idea, but it just didn't reach enough people. And what's the point of having a great idea that only helps you know that the richest kind of few percent, so...

Tamsin Caine 6:50
Seems to work really well in the US. They seem to be able to I don't know how they seem to be being able to get it to reach more people. And I suppose I don't know if it's more expensive than going the full way, all the way through the courts. But I think it certainly seems expensive in the in the first place, doesn't it?

Kate Daly 7:15
I think it does. And I think I think in the US they have a different system anyway, where there are fewer alternatives to going a legal route. It's far more litigious the expectations about how much you pay legal fees are completely different in the US to what they are here. We don't routinely go to lawyers or us lawyers in the way that the US market is structured, thankfully. Yes. So I think that's probably got something to do with it. And I think, you know, it was just that desire to have a solution that worked for everybody, rather than just, you know, a few well off or middle class people that was really sort of driving what we wanted to do. And that's that's when the tech part came in. And that's why I knew very early on, there's no way I could do this on my own. And there's no way I'd be able to scale it to reach enough people, which was absolutely my desire. Because if you can't help lots of people, then it just doesn't feel right to me. And that was what I wanted to do. I didn't want to make this to be a solution that was based on cost or your income or wanted to be a solution that worked. If you had the desire to be amicable.

Tamsin Caine 8:24
Yeah, no, I think that's I think that's really great. And so can you talk us through how the process works with amicable?

Kate Daly 8:33
Yeah, so the the fundamental differences that you're working with one, what we call divorce coach, rather than having two separate lawyers working with you. And a divorce coach could come from a background like mine, I'm a divorce coach. So family consultant background, or they often they are people who've been mediators or people who have been trained lawyers, but just don't want to go that way anymore. And if you are a lawyer, you're not allowed to work with a couple. It's against the law. So people give up their practice of tificate to come and work with couples and work in our model. So you work with a divorce coach, and at the outset, the divorce coach will help you both to set goals. And the reason for setting goals is that it helps you focus on the future, what you're trying to create, you know where you want to go. And it takes you out from dwelling on the past and apportioning blame and getting stuck in the well I deserve more because you left me and I didn't choose this, which might feel you know, might be exactly how you feel personally, but that's not how the law works. And it's not how financial settlements are made. So focusing on the future helps people focus on the needs and particularly the needs of the children if there are children. So we set we set goals, we get people to paint a really vivid as vivid a picture as possible of where they want to end up because it's really important. That you hear that from each other, even if it's different, and also that your coach hears it as well. Because when we come down to making some of those really nitty gritty decisions, sometimes it's the goals that actually help us make those decisions, rather than just looking at a legal model of what might be fair or otherwise. So we set the goals. And then just like in any other process, we have to have a full financial disclosure. So just like you would in mediation, or if you went to a solicitor, but we don't use, you know, there's all four means that take 45 pages, and you have to copy your bank statements, since you were about 15, or whatever, we don't do that. But we do a big, proper full financial disclosure, we have a lovely system, we have a divorce portal that you go on to that asks you some very simple questions, that's very intuitive, that allows you to input your information at your own pace, so you don't get all overwhelmed. It only shows you the questions that are relevant to you, depending on how you've answered and that kind of stuff. So it's not like wading through a really horrible, frightening form. We've tried to make it as simple to use and as non threatening as possible. So we take your full financial disclosure. And then we basically say, Well, look, if these are the goals that we've set, and these are the resources we've got to play with, how can we best split these resources to meet these goals. And that will generate a number of options. And obviously, there's never just one option. So we might map out a model a few options that will help us decide, which is the right option that you as a couple want to focus on. And then we'll work with that option to stress test it when it does it work. does it cover our housing needs? Does it make sure we've got enough money to live on does it make sure we've got income in retirement. So we'll stress test those options. And then we'll create a settlement out of those stress tests. That works for everybody in the family. And that doesn't just seek to make one person win and the other person lose.

Tamsin Caine 12:01
Pretty sensible. So pretty much the same. Or a similar thing to the way that we hope to help couples and individuals as well. So yeah, that's it. That makes complete sense. And then from there, once they've reached a settlement, I think I'm right in saying that you don't have to do any more, send them back to lawyers. Do you? Didn't you reach some landmark? Sure, I read a huge Twitter headlines. Not so very long ago. Do you wanna tell us a bit about that?

Kate Daly 12:37
Yeah, so So now the next bit of the process is we will then draft all of the legal paperwork. But we did go to the High Court over that. Well, we went to the High Court over two points, really, the model was challenged one on whether we were allowed to work with couples in the way that we were, and to whether we had the right to be able to write those legal documents. We we won as you say on both counts. So yeah, it's been a really hard judgement to say that you nobody is allowed to work with couples, and that there will always be a conflict of interest. It just doesn't seem, you know, it doesn't seem fair or right, that that would have been a judgement say, Yes, I mean, the judgement applies specifically to amicable. So it's not saying that lawyers can work with couples. So it still does mean that in order to work in this way, you have to choose a non lawyer based system. But it also said that there was nothing to prevent us from drafting a consent order as well. We draft and we write what we call neutrally drafted consent orders, so they don't favour one person or another. Because that's another of the issues with mediation. If you go to mediation, you then have to take the consent order to be drafted by one solicitor. Yeah. And then whoever is effectively that solicitors client is then that your solicitor has to ask to do what's in your best interest. That's their job, it's not a choice they can decide not to do they have to do it in that way. So. So we try and provide a neutral drafting service. And that also means that people who have used a different process to come to an agreement whether they've done it themselves, you know, around the kitchen table, so to speak, or whether they've been to a mediator and have got an agreement they're happy with. We also offer a drafting service and neutral drafting service so that we can turn memorandums of understanding into consent orders for people as well so that you can maintain that amicable couples approach that you might have done, for example, in mediation.

Tamsin Caine 14:46
Oh, that's fantastic. I didn't realise you could do that. That's wonderful. Yeah, I think there'll be there will be other services that are being used at the minute who that would be, that would be useful for x And so we are hoping very much that no fault divorce will come into play, hopefully in the autumn, although it seems to have gone very quiet. And what difference if any, do you think that will make?

Kate Daly 15:19
I think it will make a huge difference. And I'm really delighted that no fault divorces, eventually being made the law because it's been a long time coming. I think the difference it makes is if you're starting a process, and the first one of the first things you have to do is write a behaviour statement against your partner, that just sets completely the wrong tone. And we always say it's what happens in those first few days, weeks months, that sets the tone for the whole divorce, if that's sort of there in the background, hanging over somebody's head, is just not a not a productive way to start. It serves no purpose. It's not looked at again, it's just something that upsets and provokes anxiety. And even though you know, now we're obviously having to work around that current system. And we do explain to people that have makes no difference, no one's going to see it. Again, it's not a matter of public record, and all of those sorts of things. It just makes it harder. And it's Stokes conflict where there is no need for conflict to be stoked, it's a far more self deterministic, it's a far more grown up way of doing things not to apportion blame, to accept that for either one or both of you, the relationship is no longer viable. And if it's no longer viable for one, effectively, the marriage is over. And that's what I think the no fault seeks to recognise as well. That, you know, it's one out all out. And it doesn't need to be a horrible process, it's terribly difficult to come to that decision for anybody. And it doesn't therefore need to be you don't know or need to be punished. And it doesn't need to be made harder for you, when you've already had to struggle to get to that point of either yourself or together deciding that the marriage has to end. So I'm really delighted, I think it will make a big difference. It starts people off on the right foot. And the other part of it, obviously, is that for the first time, you'll be able to divorce as a couple. And so from our perspective, being a couple service, it's great, because it just means that people can do what they come to us for all the way through the process. So rather than one person having to be the petitioner and one person having to be the respondent. So one person instigating, you can do a divorce together, which means that you can, you know, agree that you're doing it together, and you're doing it as a couple. So from our perspective, it feels like the world is finally catching up.

Tamsin Caine 17:51
I'm totally with you. I just think that us It starts off with it's like we were saying earlier about, about it being about this financial settlement being fair of both sides, and you're not throughout that process. There, it makes no difference who's the petitioner, it doesn't make any difference? Who is the wrongdoer? In the filing? So it's not going to be taken into consideration at any point? Why start off on that? On that point of you did this just doesn't make any sense in this day and age. And it's utterly bonkers that we've taken so long to get to this point. But hey, how they get there eventually. So yeah, absolutely agree it that is, it is really good news. From a from a lot of a lot of perspectives. It's interesting what you were saying earlier on about, you're coming at it from a point of being a counsellor cars, and dealing with the emotional side of things and setting the goals kind of upfront, is one of the things that we say to our clients is that you need to get the emotional stability and the emotional side of things sorted before you race off to see a lawyer or or a mediator or anybody else really, because that's, you can't make great decisions until, until that that happens. Is that your point of view as well?

Kate Daly 19:25
Ideally, yes, but sometimes you don't have a choice about the timing of things. So yeah, so in a, in an ideal situation, you would both take some time to process the end of the relationship, to do it well, to say what you need to say, to recover emotionally and to get to that stable place where you can then make, you know, some rational sound decisions about how you're going to split your finances. So I think everybody would say that that would be the you know, the better way of doing things and if you can do it that way. Then that's great, there is always a difference between the person who starts the divorce and who's asked for it negotiates it, and the person who's hearing the news for the first time, they're always going to be in quite different starting points. If you're the instigator, you could have been thinking about this for years, or months. And therefore, you're in a totally different emotional space to somebody who's hearing it for the first time. And despite the fact you might think it's obvious, the relationship has been in a bad place for a long time, they might not they might not see it in that way, you know, in this could be a real shock for them. So always recognising that your potential partner is potentially in a very different emotional place to you and won't be seeing things in the same way is really important. So there's always kind of that to play, you know, some attention to, but even if you are able to recognise that and to give your partner some time, and then to start the negotiations, that's always the better way. But sometimes, for whatever reason, that's not people's experience, and they're being forced to do something against their timing. And in that case, then I think using a service where there is good recognition of the emotional journey, and you can access that additional support, you need to be able to take you on the journey with somebody by your side, I think that's really important. And that, you know, that again, might be something like our service, or it might be having a divorce coach, or seeing a therapist or something like that, whilst you're going through this. So I think you can make up for the fact that the timing might not be ideal. And if you can make the timing more ideal by recognising that one of you or both of you might need a bit of time before you then start looking at the sharp end of things. I think that's good.

Tamsin Caine 21:51
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Is your service suitable for everybody?

Kate Daly 21:59
No, I don't think service is suitable for everybody. I think we always say that an aspiration to be amicable is a good enough starting point. So sometimes people say, well, we're not amicable, but we both want to be and then I think well, that's, that's fair enough, we can work with aspiration. But there might be some people for whom our services is not suitable if there are safeguarding issues. If there's domestic violence, coercive control, anything like that. If you're dealing with alcoholism, drug abuse, and if any of those sorts of things that make one or both of you unstable, that then means that because you don't have the protection of the court, you are having to bring your whole self to the table. If that's if it's not safe for you to do that, then, then I don't think this is the right service. And I think in those, in those cases, the court system and the legal system play a really vital role in you know, helping people with really challenging circumstances, navigate a fair and safe separation. And I think that's absolutely key. I don't think I think all of this is really about giving people choice. And helping people appreciate there are different ways of doing things. And we always say our sort of biggest thing at the moment is to try and get the message out there that if if somebody mentions the D word, or you're going down that road, the first thing you don't do is rush off to a solicitor but you stop and you think and you start to have a different approach to it, rather than thinking the answer is to run to a solicitor at the first sort of shout of trouble. And I think that's, that's the important thing to give people some information, somewhere where they can go and look at the different options and work out what's right for them and their family because everybody's different.

Tamsin Caine 23:58
Yeah, no, absolutely. I totally agree with that. Can you have an amicable divorce, if any one of you is wanting it?

Kate Daly 24:09
Well, it that's a tough one. To use our service, you've both got to be prepared to come into it. So in that sense, if you mean amicable in the brand amicable then No, it's a couple service, we only work with couples. So you've both got to want to do it. But if you mean, more generally, it was amicable, but we use a small a as well. So blend the knots, the amicable company sense, then I think, I think you can make a more peaceful approach for yourself even in the face of your ex but the important thing is to unhook yourself from reacting to your ex. So if you want to have a more amicable divorce, then I think the key is to recognise this and lesson until you start responding rather than react. And unless and until you separate as much as you can from your partner, that's going to be really difficult. But if you are micromanaging every decision and if you're still worrying about what your ex does with your child on the weekends, you don't have them and that kind of stuff, then think it's really difficult to be amicable. But if you can stand back, and you can think carefully about how you respond and start to get on that more businesslike fitting that I know, in some of your other podcasts you talk about as well. And other guests have said, but it is really about trying to professionalise your relationship. Yeah. and acknowledge that you're moving from being intimate, close partners, where you shorthand you using motion, all of those sorts of things, to actually removing that element of your relationship and putting it on more professional, slightly less cute and cosy kind of informal way of talking to each other, and of signing off females and of making certain demands, that would be perfectly acceptable within the auspices of a marriage or a relationship. But when you become co parents Stop being so acceptable.

Tamsin Caine 26:11
Yeah, absolutely. I know, that you've talked about, about communication and about the vital importance of communication and, and changing that from that cosy relationship based to a to a more professional, sort of standpoint, I'm sure. read or heard you saying about? When you're writing a letter or typing an email, think of whether you would say that to your friend, or your mum, before you send it out? I think that's, that's really good advice.

Kate Daly 26:47
Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised how many times in a week, obviously, in the work that we do, we get sometimes copied into email exchanges between people, and I do recall. Wow. Okay, I can totally see where you're coming from, I can see why you're angry with what's been written to you. But really, you would not send that to your worst enemy, let alone, you know, somebody you're trying to, you know, have a constructive move or relationship with and I think that's the thing, I think it's, it's, it's just remembering some of the basics, like, dear somebody, or thanks for your email, not just going straight in with, you've done this, or you said the other week that I mean, just very small, really, small techniques like that are important. Always just pausing before you send anything, you know, walking away, it takes the brain a good 20 minutes to calm down once it's been triggered, in that fight flight response. So you really need to walk away for a good 20 minutes before your brain is anywhere near, able to look at and process your potential response in any form of you know, reasonable way. So just making sure you don't fire stuff back. And things like that are really important, and with a really good technique from the high conflict Institute called Biff, where it's called Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm. And it means it's a basic way of just remembering that Biff acronym when you're sending an email back or a response back, so keep it short, don't do pages and pages, just be really short with it. Keep it informative. So based on information, you don't need to put all your worldly feelings into the email and all that kind of stuff. Keep it friendly. So that remembering the Hello thank yous and all of that kind of stuff, but be firm. So if you're trying to close down a response, like you don't want to get into a big dialogue over email, don't ask questions, because that opens it up. So think about the use of very closed questions if you're just trying to elicit a very brief response, or the opposite things you do when you're interviewing or talking to people basically. And don't ask questions, if you're just stating something that you are intending to do. And I will say the other one is don't tell people what you're not going to do. There's nothing to say, and I'm not going to be doing this, this and this, just don't do it. You don't need to tell somebody, you're not going to do it, because that will wind them up. Just don't do it. Just the importance of communication is, you know, really becomes very vital. And as I say, trying to try to find a way of communicating in a constructive way, is really important. And there are lots of tools that can help you do that. Now we have our own co parenting app that we launched recently, which has a whole section where you can communicate all about the children. You can it's all in one place, you can scroll back up and see what you did or didn't agree. And it doesn't get lost in your WhatsApp or anything else. It doesn't interrupt you in the middle of the day. So you get one of those really annoying, texts pinging and you can see it from your ex, you're half reading it, while Doing a zoom call, you know, it's horrible, isn't it, it's just really horrible. Because when you're at the beginning of it, it makes you feel physically ill when you get those awful messages, and you kind of, it really affects you and it affects your well being. So being a bit more planned about where you're going to communicate and not allowing that to leak into all of your life can be a really good technique to adopt. So, and there are, obviously there are other co parenting apps on the market. But we obviously think that ours is one of the better ones. So

Tamsin Caine 30:33
no, I think that's it, I think that's great idea and keeping out of have the communication so you can go back and look at what you've agreed just just completely make sense to me. This is, I mean, my priority around helping people to want to separate and divorce amicably is is around co parenting because and because my parents who've been divorced for 35 years, still cannot be in the same room together. And, and it was horrendous strain on me and my sister, and you know, my kids christening, wedding, it was very, very difficult to have them in the same room. Whereas I'm very lucky in that myself, my husband, when we got divorced, we we've very carefully tried to do it as amicably as possible. And we knew that we were going to be parenting our kids together for the rest of their lives about how old they are. To the point that yesterday, it was my son's first reboot, he's 17. Now it's his first match playing for the SR Colts. And we were both there watching him and he scored to try it out in front of us both. And it was so important to him that we were both there. And if you aren't able, or if you don't want to do this amicably, at least think about those sorts of things in the future that you might want to be there for. And you might want to be both able to be there supporting your child in a friendly way. And if nothing else, pushes you to try and be amicable then sleep late.

Kate Daly 32:20
The children are the most important thing in all of this. And I think we become we're becoming more aware of the impact that bad divorce can have on children. And we're also understanding it's not divorce itself, it's the way that we do it that causes damage. So we don't have to go down saying that right? No one should ever get divorced. Because that's really bad for kids, we've gone past and beyond that, divorce happens, it's a part of our society, it will continue to happen. And it's more likely that there'll be more relationship breakdowns. As marriage declines. And we, we cohabit more and cohabiting relationships are five times more likely to break down the marriage relationships, but they are becoming way more popular and way more than norm, and therefore, it's likely as a society, we're going to have to get better. But moving from relationship to relationship, we're living longer. So that increases the odds even more that you're unlikely to stay with or less likely to stay with one partner than you were 1020 years ago. So navigating this space is going to become increasingly important. And remembering that if you've been in a relationship where children, you've had children, then as you rightly say, that's a lifelong commitment, your children are going to be there for the rest of your life. So it's not like you can cut and run, you are always going to be involved with that other person. And, you know, I haven't got a good co parenting relationship still after 10 years of being divorced. So like your parents, it's a great source of upset to me, it's something I would love to change and try to change. We both tried. But it's very, very difficult given our circumstances. But it's just it's when something happens to one of your children, whether it's something that's good or something that's bad. The only other person that gets it is your ex. Yeah, in quite the same way. And it's love. My parents are fantastic. They've, you know, had a big involvement in my kid's life. But it's still not the same as being able to turn around to your ex and just share that moment. And I can only imagine the shared joy when your son scored, the tribe must have just been heartstopping. You know, it's just lovely. And you said, We are lucky earlier, you're not lucky. You tried really hard to create that scenario. And I think it's it's that desire to create that scenario, that ability to see that far forward. Would and to think about, you know, there is nobody else in the world that cares for your kids the same as the same way as your ex does. And acknowledging that means sometimes you make compromises that perhaps you wouldn't make another times of your life, but in order to preserve that ability to be that co parent, that's what's important.

Tamsin Caine 35:21
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Children are very, very resilient. But, but we do have to create the space for them to, to come through divorce. With that, with that resilience, and with that, emotional stability. Kate, thank you so much for joining me today. Is there anything you want to add before we say goodbye?

Kate Daly 35:48
I think the only thing that I would want to leave people with is that an amicable divorce is not only possible, but it's becoming increasingly the way people are choosing to do things. So I I like people to think of this not as some fringe way of doing it that only a few people do. We help 1000s and 1000s of people every year, it's becoming way more popular and way more expected that particularly if you have children that you're seeking investigate amicable ways of divorcing, whether that's as a say, through our service or through a mediated approach. But avoiding that traditional battling approach is absolutely vital, if we're going to be you know, a successful society and not damage our kids and, you know, get our kids to repeat patterns and mistakes that we've made. So I would just leave people with the idea that this is this is just normal. It's just not a fringe thing. It's just dead normal to get divorced amicably.

Tamsin Caine 36:42
Yeah, yeah. And hopefully, lots of people will continue to do that. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today.

Kate Daly 36:53
Thanks for having me Tamsin I hope you enjoy that that episode of the smart divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website Also, if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce, and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some work further support we do have Facebook group now. It's called "Separation Divorce and Dissolution UK". Please do go on to Facebook search of the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care

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