In this episode, Tamsin is joined by fellow financial planner and financial neutral Steve Hennessy. This series explores the work that goes on behind the scenes when clients aren’t present!
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Steven Hennessy
Steven Hennessy began his career in financial advice in 1998. He has extensive experience advising individuals and families on all aspects of personal wealth, including pensions, investments, financial lifestyle planning, portfolio construction, retirement strategies, and estate planning.
He is one of a small minority of financial advisers in the UK to have achieved both Chartered Financial Planner status, and Certified Financial Plannercm status.
He is a Resolution Accredited Specialist Financial Adviser, abiding by the Resolution Code of Practice for families going through divorce, and assesses the knowledge and competence of other financial advisers who work in this field.
www.beeswaxwealth.co.uk
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. This is series nine and in this series we're going to explore what makes up the working week of various different professionals who work in the divorce world. You'll start to understand what they do, both during the time that you see them, how they prepare for meetings, and what work goes into the work of a divorce professional outside of the time that you spend with them. I'm really looking forward to some amazing clients in this series. We talked to a barrister, family solicitor, financial planner, divorce coach and really hoping that you're going to enjoy it and get a lot from it as well. Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. I am really, really happy to be joined by my lovely friend, Steve Hennessy, who I've just said to him that we know each other a bit.
Steven Hennessy:
This will involve a hotel bar. From the back of my recommendation.
Tamsin Caine:
We're not allowed to disclose these things, so I'm going to let you introduce yourself in a minute. But what you've written as the introduction? When I asked you to write an introduction that I should read out, you said you are a Chartered Financial Planner, resolution Accredited Specialist, which there's not very many of us, I think. I thought we were kind of 30, 40ish, but you might tell me different. When we get chatting, dad of three, he loves reading and writing, crossfit, which I don't know if I knew you were a CrossFitter.
Steven Hennessy:
How can you not tell from my Olympian frame?
Tamsin Caine:
Well, because I am and I don't have an Olympian frame.
Tamsin Caine:
Oh right yeah, fair enough. Also like coffee and wandering around a museum. So I'll probably chat to you about those other things another time, but for today, we're going to talk about um working as a um divorce specialist in financial planning world. So have I, have I done a good enough job of introducing you? Do you want to? Do you want to fill some gaps in on that lot? Yeah, I don't mind, I thought we done a good enough job of introducing you. Do you want to? Do you want to fill some gaps in on that lot?
Steven Hennessy:
yeah, I don't mind, I thought we did a great job. I will say I was talking about this this morning is as a financial advisor. It's quite funny because we have different titles depending on who you're talking to. So I am variously a financial advisor, a financial planner, an independent financial advisor, a chartered financial planner, an independent financial advisor, a chartered financial planner it's all the same thing broadly. And then the accreditation, the resolution. Accreditation is a resolution of a professional body. I'm sure a lot of your listeners might have heard in previous episodes you talk about them and they're about I think we're pushing towards 50 now financial advisors who also have this specialist accreditation which sort of demonstrates a level of understanding of sort of working in and around divorce and separation. So I'm really proud of that.
Steven Hennessy:
I sometimes work as a financial neutral. I know you had Tom Farrell on a few episodes ago, actual legend walking legend. So I do a bit of financial neutral work as well. But yeah, ultimately, if people ask me on a Saturday night, what do you do for a living, I'm a financial advisor, but with various sort of definitions that can come out when you talk about it.
Steven Hennessy:
I started in 1998, the week Beckham got sent off against Argentina. So yeah, that's what I remember about that. I've worked at national insurance companies and in a bank and things like that. And then just over 10 years ago, I started my own business and for one reason or another, I ended up doing quite a bit of work, initially with solicitors around all sorts of issues whether it's somebody who passed away or was dealing with trusts or attorneys and things like that.
Steven Hennessy:
Then I got involved in a couple of cases where there was a divorce and like a lot of people I think yourself included thought, oh, I could actually really help people here if I sort of do some of the other things that we do. I went through a separation myself personally. My parents got divorced when I was a teenager. So I had sort of a reasonable sort of personal experience of how complicated that gets, even in sort of early constructive circumstances, and just thought, well, I'll see if I can be useful over there. And here I am 10 years later. It's probably 90% of my work comes through that sort of channel.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely Do you. I'm interested in this because I don't often speak to people who have experienced divorce themselves and I think in our world it's reasonably common for people who are doing kind of specialist work. I think it's reasonably common in divorce coaching world, not so common in the legal world. It's reasonably common in the divorce coaching world, not so common in the legal world. Do you feel your personal experience of divorce has helped you to help others to empathise perhaps a little bit better?
Steven Hennessy:
I suppose it must do. I don't really think. I don't think sort of directly so much. It's not something that the experiences with my own sort of separation and my my parents divorce aren't sort of front and center when I'm doing the work, but they must be in there somewhere certainly, you know, thinking about my mum and dad. They, you know, with the best of intentions, I think they kind of got the pensions in a bit of a mess, you know, and coincidentally, 30 years later, here I am doing a lot of that kind of tidying up.
Steven Hennessy:
So maybe that's not a coincidence. And then, yeah, with my own separation from my eldest daughter's mother, I mean we were fairly constructive and amicable, just trying to move forward in a new direction for each other and just trying to be sensible about it, and I was sort of stupefied at how useless I felt at not being able to just sort of get some some sort of concepts that are in my head sort of out into a piece of paper and in a lucid way to be able to communicate about. It sort of shocked me. I mean, by then I'd been in a financial advisor thinking for 15 years and here I was sort of stumbling over my words because all of a sudden that emotion was in there.
Steven Hennessy:
Which I think again, the work that I do I'm very conscious that you know there are numbers on a spreadsheet and then there's a human being behind it all and you know they're very, very different concepts and approaching the work, thinking about people rather than numbers, which is kind of where financial advisors tend to be comfortable, right, oh, great, this is what I do. Pension statement, investments Great, I can sort of roll my sleeves up and show you all the stuff I know, whereas, you know, some of the most resourceful people I've worked with are just blinking in the headlights, so to speak, thinking what is all this stuff? Why have I got to make decisions on it?
Tamsin Caine:
blinking in the headlights, so to speak, thinking what is all this stuff? Why have I got to make decisions on it? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting because if I think of any of the financial planners that I know who do this kind of this kind of work and work with divorce and separating people, I think we are. We tend to be more comfortable with the person than the spreadsheet, which is perhaps, which is is perhaps what separates us. Maybe it's a.
Steven Hennessy:
Yeah, it's interesting to think about that yeah, I definitely sort of make sure that the people I'm working with I'm okay, you know I'm chartered, I've got a few exams under my belt, but I'm I'm not the most technical minded financial advisor. I've sort of learned it and forgot it. I just know where to look for it. I think it helps me. You know, certainly at first meeting I'm just sitting there listening, you know, to a human being in front of me, rather than filling in documents and trying to build that sort of uh sort of financial picture, if you like, I want to speak to the human in front of me and, again, you know it takes a while to get there. When you first start, you want to share everything you know and, of course, people don't really want to hear it, that's what I did.
Steven Hennessy:
I was like oh let me tell you our pensions were a way they're really bored by this. But you know, you get that from experience, don't you?
Tamsin Caine:
absolutely so. What's it? What do the people who come through your door look like? What is there? A typical client?
Steven Hennessy:
I don't know about that.
Steven Hennessy:
I mean and business is changing all the time and we might touch on this I'm doing a little bit more now, say, compared to two, three years ago, of what I call financial neutral work, where I'm working with a couple who are being, you know, constructive and working together to come to their financial settlement.
Steven Hennessy:
So I'm doing a bit more of that work, but I still do more sort of traditional advice to one party, if you like. Typically, if I looked at my client bank, it's a woman, perhaps in her early 50s, maybe, um, if you know, I don't know if that's a coincidence and if it reflects the kind of professionals that have introduced those people to me more than my business itself. So, yeah, and you know, it's such a lovely job in that sense because, unlike, say, perhaps, a family lawyer, we tend to work with clients in a much longer term timeframe and some of the clients that I still work with I first met when they were in the midst of quite a difficult transition and now they're, 10 years later, looking 10 years younger and living the life that they love. And I'm just a small part of that, just saying, yeah, go on off, you go. Nothing's changed since last year, so that's lovely aspects of the job.
Tamsin Caine:
That's really interesting that the people who come to you are largely women, and I realize that that is a it's an insane statement, but I guess I kind of thought I get a lot of women come to me. I'm working with quite a lot of men as well, and I know there are lots of people in our in our world who've set themselves up specifically to to deal with women and that's that's. They only work with women. I was I'm kind of surprised actually, that that's that that's who tends to come to you as well. Not that you're not exceptionally approachable and a lovely guy, but yeah, I don't know. I guess I thought it would be the men that would be coming to you.
Steven Hennessy:
Yeah, I think back to the first few cases I worked on 10 years ago and I'm still working with the same handful of family lawyers or law firms who, just experience, have thought well, you know, steve's pretty good with this type of scenario. The feedback obviously they get then from those clients is oh, thanks for giving me steve's name. Obviously, you know there's bound to be exceptions to that. But, um, I'm, you know I, I am where I am and, yeah, I'm. I'm conscious that you know I am where I am and you know, I'm conscious that you know there's people out there that specialize in a certain type of professional or, you know, certain age, demographic, and that's all great. I've never really badged myself one way or another. I just try to be useful and it sort of shakes out where it shakes out.
Tamsin Caine:
I like that. That makes a lot of sense. So what, what would working with you look like? Let's, so, let's, let's do the kind of standard working with one person. What does that look like if somebody's working with you?
Steven Hennessy:
yeah, again. Well, we'll take the sort of. The typical route is that generally have been introduced to me by the family lawyer that they're working with. And you know, again, generally my preference is to set up a 30-minute zoom without cost or obligation and that's really just a chance to have a chat, like you and I having a chat now. Really it's not the same as being in the same room. There's sort of certain aspects that you don't get from zoom that you would get from being in a room, but that's just a case of let me try and allocate my time effectively. But yeah, in that 30 minutes just get a feel for their circumstances and their priorities. And obviously the benefit of working with the same sort of lawyers over time is that generally the people that are introduced to me are kind of well prepared for what kind of things I'm going to be asking them. But still they need that, you know, eyeball to eyeball kind of conversation.
Steven Hennessy:
Who is this person who's potentially going to help me make some of the most significant decisions I might ever make? So I'll just have a chat again, find out what's on their mind more than anything, and it might be, I'm just keen to get on with this and I know what the answer is. I just need somebody like you to kind of make sure I'm not missing anything, or they might be at a complete sort of loss where money's concerned, and I'll say I'll then try to adapt my service and communicate with them in a way that resonates with them, and then at the end of 30 minutes, we'll know whether or not I'm going to be of value to them, and obviously I'm not. Everybody picks up the phone for me, so to speak. Do I need to work with that? It might be. Oh, actually, all you really need to do is, you know, ring this person, ask that question and then, you know, sign that form. You don't need me. I'm just going to introduce a load of delay and cost, or we can't get involved and and this is where I think we can help and then this is how we charge go away and have a think about all that. Let me know, have any questions, and all I'm really doing in that first meeting is just trying to be useful and thinking you know, can I add value, can I make a difference to this person in exchange for the fees that we charge?
Steven Hennessy:
We charge on a very consistent basis, uh, and it's a dynamic right because sometimes you know you can get introduced to somebody where, for whatever reason, that chemistry just isn't there. And I think it's so important that it is especially at this juncture in their lives that they just got someone who they feel you know, that they're gelling with rather than you know, for whatever reason. You know people clash and that I don't take it too personally if you think that fit's not right. But again I go back to the fact that if it's been introduced, if the person's been introduced by a family lawyer that I've worked with for some time, they've probably put some thought into that introduction and thought, yes, steve will probably be a good fit for this particular individual.
Steven Hennessy:
Because of the way that I work, I tend to be quite relaxed, you know, don't get me wrong. There's a place out there for a more sort of formal, you know, approach to the work that we do. I try to sort of strip a lot of that away and be as authentically me as I can be, for good or worse that sounds like the sort of.
Tamsin Caine:
There's a similar approach to the, to the one that that I would take as well. What? What happens? So the, the person in front of you, thinks Steve's the man for me to help me with my divorce. You understand what next?
Steven Hennessy:
Yeah.
Steven Hennessy:
So then, what a financial advisor would typically want to do is what we call a fact find, data gathering, discovery, meeting it's called lots of different things. It's, to sort of put it into plain language, is just find out as much as you possibly can about the person sitting in front of me, both at a very sort of um, you know, data driven level. You know what's your date of birth, national insurance number, savings, blah, blah, blah, but I think, perhaps more importantly, what they're about in terms of you know what's driving them, what are their priorities and concerns for their life going forward, and which sounds really big. It is big, you know, because it's not the sort of stuff that you think about necessarily when you wake up in the morning. But if you're going through a huge transition, like a divorce, I think that those kind of questions are just being thrown at you all the time. So, to try to encourage them to open up to me having spent maybe half an hour on a zoom with me, it's important that they do that, because I'm an independent financial advisor I just want to put a plan together for them that delivers for them the outcomes they want. Um, and I'm quite agnostic about what that looks like at that stage. Really, I just want to find something that gives them that peace of mind, that right, I'm back in control, I'm pointed in the direction that I want to go and I'm not losing sight of the long term. Because, understandably, times and you'll know this when all that changes up in the air, all that uncertainty, it's totally understandable that people come become sort of quite myopic and short-sighted and just think I've just got to get through the next week. I don't really care about me in 10 years' time. Well, as financial planners we're sitting there going. Well, don't forget about you in 10 years' time. So it's just getting that balance right. So a short answer to your question really is just to get lots and lots of information.
Steven Hennessy:
For me, my preference always is to do that in a face-to-face meeting in the same room for a good hour and a half, two hours sometimes, and you know, not just doing all the data gathering but you know, talking about the dog or the weather or things like that. Just get to build that chemistry because you're going to be a team and the quicker you can get that awkward kind of shaking hands and being all stiff around each other out the way you can see their shoulders drop and they exhale and go right. This person's on my side, they speak my language, for want of a better phrase, and we're going to get this done and then that's really empowering that they've got. You know, I'm just there sort of supporting them.
Steven Hennessy:
I very rarely get too sort of I don't want to sort of be too prescriptive too early on and sort of just do it this way, trust me, I know what I'm doing. I don't, I don't want to do that. I'd rather take them on the journey and then go. Well, you're saying we can go left or right. Here isn't the answer right and we go? Yes, it is, you know. I think that's a bit more powerful for them to feel in charge. Sometimes they're like look, you decide, but most of the time I'm trying to empower them and give them that clarity and confidence yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
And then so you've gathered all the information from the client and then I guess we're on to the bit that the client doesn't see the the bit of magic that that is going on behind the scenes. And I'm interested to kind of dig into this bit because I think that you know we charge our clients these fees. We provide an amazing handholding service, but I think there's a lot that goes into it that people don't see that we spend a lot of time tearing our hair out over maybe, yeah, yeah. So what happens once all the so you've got a good understanding of their numbers, but you've also got a good understanding of the person and and what they're looking for from the next chapter of their life.
Steven Hennessy:
Yeah, yeah, I mean we have to go off and do our financial advisory bit which, as you say, clients don't really see and arguably they don't put a lot of value on it. Really, they take it as read that you're going to just sort that stuff out. I think what they really value is the relationship. Obviously, it's beholden on us to do a proper, thorough job. We're, quite rightly, heavily regulated. We've got a lot of control and power at this point, someone who perhaps might not be able to grasp all the issues and so it's like a fiduciary obligation on us to just do the right thing. So me and my team, you know so, if we take somebody who's got, who will end up receiving some form of some sums coming his or her way through perhaps equity in a house coming their way, or pensions by way of pension share I've got to kind of find a structure for all that stuff to fall into that meets their needs in the short and longer term, and that's just doing what we do as financial advisors, which is looking at the market that's out there, all the products and providers out there. Uh, you can tell it's probably my tone or voice has already changed because I just don't get as excited about this stuff, but it is really important that we do it. Well. I say I have a team of really smart people who just say, okay, what are we looking for? For? You know client a here and, as you know, tam Tamsin. For some clients it's quite straightforward. They just need something quite simple and straightforward. Other clients will need a load of bells and whistles.
Steven Hennessy:
The UK's got a very healthy financial services market. We'll go out and find the products and providers that fit around them. And, going back to my point earlier, I'm quite agnostic about where that ends up. I just want a good outcome for the client. We are paid the same regardless. Our fee. We're only paid by the client. So, unlike maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago, there are no commissions now incentivizing so-called advisors. So that bit's quite straightforward really.
Steven Hennessy:
We just do our research and then, of course, throughout the throughout the year again, as you'll know, we do sort of. I don't know is it 50 hours worth of cpd that we have to be doing at some point, which is just staying on top of a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. There's doing it and then there's recording it as the other bit. So you know my typical working week, if I'm not in a client meeting, is working on that research side with my team or just developing my own knowledge, keeping it relevant. You know, stuff's always changing, whether it's the economy or rules or or whatever. So, yeah, that's what we're doing.
Steven Hennessy:
And then we're coming back and sitting down with the client and saying, okay, we've gone away and done all this stuff. Do you want to? Now some clients want to know the ins and outs of everything you've done and that you've come up with options a, b, c, d and e. And again, most of the clients I work with would be like well, I'll just do what you tell me to do because we've spent time together. Now the person who gave me your number has done a great job and I trust them. So you know, you're chartered, we've got all these credentials and so forth.
Steven Hennessy:
So hopefully by that point they're like okay, I just need to understand it and how it's supporting my goals. And then, yeah, we'll have a second meeting where we're explaining the pros and cons, the costs and benefits of of what we're proposing they do. And then again I I like baby steps. I don't really. You know I very rarely will I say, right, let's start a load of pieces of paper now, because you've been sat here nodding for the last hour. I'm conscious that you know. I'm conscious that you know they can present.
Steven Hennessy:
Everybody can present quite well, so I'll just leave them with all that and just say, you know, just sit on that for a few weeks big decisions. I might then go back to, perhaps, the family lawyer that they've come to so that this is what I'm thinking that they're doing. This is why it's supporting what you're doing on the legal side and just, yeah, nudge them towards good outcomes, but hopefully at the end of those sort of two or three meetings that I've just mentioned. Yes, there's a load of recommendations. There's a 50-page report that I've written. Wow, it's really exciting. It's got loads and loads of numbers and words in it, but nobody will ever really read it.
Steven Hennessy:
I have an executive summary which says look, do this, and this is why this is the cost. But they are feeling in control. That's what I want them to feel is like right, okay, this is a big decision. I've got some questions, but I they can feel that sense of progress from perhaps the first meeting where I've sat down with them, where they maybe were feeling overwhelmed, even if they weren't presenting as being overwhelmed. So we all do a very good job of covering that stuff up. And from my own experience, as I mentioned earlier, you know sitting there, nodding, going, yeah, got that, and thinking. I don't even know what you just said. I've just got so much going through my head at the moment and don't forget.
Steven Hennessy:
You know, as financial advisors, we have a very, very sort of narrow window on this stuff. We're looking at money and very often in the background there's people moving home, there's children potentially moving schools as well as moving home. There's all that stuff going on and you're sitting there wagging your tail because you've come up with a really exciting pensions report.
Tamsin Caine:
You know it's just sort of like you, pensions report you know, you just gotta, you gotta be conscious of that bigger picture. I think, yeah, absolutely what? What you've just described to me and you can correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick on this but that sounds like an a kind of end of the process where you're coming in, so the deals, the settlements agreed, the deals done, the, the solicitors have kind of signed it and it's off to the court and then you're coming in. Do you get involved earlier on in the process at all, or do you tend to stick to the end of the the?
Steven Hennessy:
end. Yeah, no, that's, that's a really good point. So the kind of the um, the process I just described there sort of assumed, like you say, that we're fairly later on in that process where the financial settlement is close to taking shape and there's some what we call implementation work to do. Money is going to be moving around, it needs to land in the right place and you're the person or the firm to sort of take care of that no-transcript, or have never had to think about what they spend on a monthly or an annual basis, because he or she the ex always took care of that.
Steven Hennessy:
And so I'll come in and just spend time doing a sort of more of a financial education piece, finding out what their strengths are, finding out what their sort of blind spots are, and then working on that again, just to give them confidence that you know you've thought about everything, you've not missed anything, you're asking the right questions of the right people and your instincts are good, and that and again, it's just about them feeling in control and clear about what's going on with all these conversations. About them feeling in control and clear about what's going on with all these conversations. So, yeah, budgeting, education, giving them that sense of the long term. I do all that work before we get anywhere near all those other bits that I just sort of spoke about in the more in the sort of the back end of the implementation.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely, and do you get involved at all with the offering? With like helping clients to understand what offers are going to mean to them?
Steven Hennessy:
Yes. So, like a lot of financial advisors these days, I use what's often referred to as cash flow software projections, graphs, pictures because they do tend to tell a thousand stories which might translate this 12, 15-page draft agreement into well, what does this actually look like for you? And by look like, I mean, can you live the life that you've told me you really want to live without having to worry about the money? And so we plug all the numbers into some cash flow sort of uh software which allows them to see it and, if I've done my job correctly, they'll understand what they're looking at and we'll be able to go oh, I can see now that actually it makes a lot more sense for me to have a bit more pension and a little bit less bricks and mortar, because now you know my lifestyle, not just getting by, but doing the things that really sort of excite me and I'm passionate about.
Steven Hennessy:
It's all funded and, you know, obviously it's not a crystal ball. But we thought about a few contingencies and it seems to me that my new life is affordable and that I've been as thorough as I can be. So, yeah, I'll just model that and they might have two or three scenarios that they and their ex are thinking about and we can say, well, look, you know, from a numbers point of view, you know.
Tamsin Caine:
A and B are the same, but in B you have a lot more, you know.
Steven Hennessy:
So I was dealing with a couple yesterday where their two columns on the spreadsheet, so to speak, added up to very similar numbers.
Steven Hennessy:
But uh, in this case the wife was ending up with being heavily reliant on rental income from a second and a third property, whereas husband had guaranteed inflation linked pension for life. So their numbers were actually the same. But I think in that situation and they were in fairness to them, they're trying to be as fair as possible could see that well, in that situation wife's got to deal with landlords and boilers brailing up on a Sunday morning and, you know, owning a property is a bit more sort of like a business in a way, rather than very passively, just oh yeah, the pension's gone up every April, you know. So, just being able to show them that, okay, in both scenarios you're going to be fine, but in one of them, actually, you've got a bit more exposure to perhaps some non well, some tangential issues that you know, which they kind of understood. But to see it graphically was really helpful, if that makes sense. Hard to talk about some of these things generically, isn't it, you know?
Tamsin Caine:
um, yeah, that's that it's useful to have to have an example, I think of, of where where that sort of thing can work. And I think one of the things that that clients don't see so much is what goes into the actual modeling, because it's not magic. You will have spent time like building those models and having a look at different scenarios yourself and what trying to create. Think a bit more creatively about how, how they might be able to come to a decision between them, or, you know, going back to the sister and saying, well, you know, that sounds great, but actually if you just did x, that might work a little bit better, or they just need a little bit more, or whatever.
Steven Hennessy:
And having a good constructive relationship with other professionals here is really powerful. Working in teams is exponentially. The value goes up for the end client. It sometimes feels like, oh, it's just a load of you with invoices, but I would submit that in those kind of cases where you're working constructively with other professionals, you're saving a whole lot of time and money for the, for the client not always easy for them to see that early on, but it does bear fruit.
Steven Hennessy:
Also on budgeting, I deliberately and it can be a bit painstaking sometimes, but I don't apologize for that is line by line work with a client or a couple to think about how they spend their money. Because the easy thing to do, totally understandably, is to say, well, I don't know, four or five thousand a month, you know that should cover it. That's bread, milk, council tax, couple of holidays, get the car service, blah, blah, blah. But actually if you go through that line by line, some anomalies will inevitably jump out, you know. And again, if you go through that line by line, um, some anomalies will inevitably jump out, you know. And again, if you've got to know the client so perfect example you might be sitting around their house and they're sort of saying, yeah, you know, the monthly food bill is, I don't know, 400 pound a month. You think? No, it's not. I just had the best m&s biscuits there are.
Steven Hennessy:
You know, you spend a little bit more than that each month you know, and that's just from experience, and again, I'm not saying they're trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Again people get to be a bit puritanical. You know. They're all sort of gym going, non-smoking, non-drinking. You know, and I might just be a bit realistic. You know we've all we all got to get through the week one way or another.
Steven Hennessy:
Just put the stuff in there. That is a good reflection of you. We can always sort of shuffle that around. It's more art than science. But let's get you in there, a fully rounded you, and if we can see that that's comfortably affordable, then you can exhale a bit. If we put something together that's built on you just sitting indoors watching bbc one every night, you know, um, other channels are available. It's. We're gonna. We're gonna get all this done and you're gonna be sitting there. That little voice in the back of your head's gonna go. But yeah, I can't. Can't pop out for a point because I didn't budget for it. So I do that line by line and I think there's real value in doing that, because nobody really wants to do that. I mean, there's software out there nowadays. I actually prefer rolling my sleeves up and really kind of going through line by line and just makes those numbers come alive.
Tamsin Caine:
I had a client that I was talking to just before we started recording this podcast, actually, and um, and she'd used the clever software and I'm going through it, going right. But is this, is this realistic? Oh yeah, but that's what I spent last year. Okay, was last year particularly. We talked about holidays. Was last year normal? Well, no, because we didn't really go away, right, so what's normal look like? Because our holidays, you were saying you know we go away usually Easter and in the summer we go somewhere all inclusive. I pay for all like three kids plus me and like a total holiday budget was four grand and I went, either I'm shopping for my holidays in the wrong place. Well, that budget needs increasing, but I think that's it, isn't it? Even if you use all the clever software in the world, there's nothing beats having a conversation and going through a line just just a human being and I say in 25 years I don't know I've looked at thousands of families, household budgets.
Steven Hennessy:
You get a feel for those things and I'm not there to trip anybody up. I almost don't care what they spend their money on. I just want to make sure what they're putting down reflects who they are and want to be and the lifestyle they want to maintain. And yeah, I mean some. Some of the software there now does a lot of the heavy lifting for you. I mean, I say I've, I've been going through the. I've spent many a meeting going through a shoe box or a sainsbury's bag full of statements and stuff. I don't actually mind that. I think you know. For me that's where I really get to know. You know, I sort of feel like I've really sort of been quite thorough doing that. I'm always, even if I use the software, which I've done from time to time, I still sort of don't trust it. I want to go through the Sainsbury's bag.
Tamsin Caine:
It just helps me reassure myself well it also it puts things in weird categories, sometimes as well. So you've got to understand the numbers that you're putting in there and the clients have got to understand what those numbers mean and what they represent. Because I think when we create the pictures that you talked about before, the client's got to believe that what? That if you're telling them they're going to be all right for the rest of their lives, that settlement that they're about to agree, they've got to actually believe that that's the case, because if they don't, they're still going to be worried afterwards and we don't ever want anyone to be in that position.
Steven Hennessy:
100 a cheeky little thing I sometimes do is put like 10 000 pound a year in an ice cream, just so that when I'm running through the cash flow tool, if they don't spot that, I think, okay, we need to take a step back here. I think maybe I'm sort of running you through this and maybe you know you just want to please me and say, yeah, that all looks great, steve, but that's not what this is about. This is about you feeling totally in control and confident and that comes from having a really good grip on this stuff and you can do it. I appreciate there's a lot going on, but I'm going to make sure that you're doing it. And you've just missed £833 a month on ice cream, so maybe you spend that, I don't know. I mean, I could quite easily get to that, I think.
Steven Hennessy:
But you know, it's just little things like that. You know, obviously the context has got to be right. You're not trying to make, make them understand that the devil is in the detail, for want of a better phrase. But that's where the confidence coming comes from is having a real good, comprehensive understanding of all this stuff and saying, yeah, when I eventually sign all these bits of paper and put this stuff into motion. I will do so without any anxiety about my long-term financial well-being, because I've done all this prep work and uh, yeah, I mean it's. It's lovely when you come through the other side of it, um, but it can be hard. You know, complete stranger walks into your life. This is what you spend it on socks. You know it's not a normal conversation, is it? It's what we do, isn't it absolutely?
Tamsin Caine:
you've. You've got to be a special kind of person to have those conversations, Steve. So you've talked about a couple that you were working with a few minutes ago. So how does it differ when you're working with a couple to when you're working with an individual?
Steven Hennessy:
Yeah, it's a really good question. It's a very different dynamic. It takes a very different sort of skill set and one that I'm sort of constantly applying myself to make sure I'm getting it right. Because, again, I think you can do a lot of damage with the best of intentions in a situation like that and, unfortunately enough, you know that particular couple I was talking about. You know they're working very constructively but still ultimately are going through a divorce.
Steven Hennessy:
You know that particular couple is talking about. You know they're working very constructively but still ultimately are going through a divorce. You know, and there's only so much that I will see or feel during a one hour zoom session. So you know, again, there's an element of doing what you would be doing for one individual twice over, but by doing it collegiately and transparently with each other, it is removing some of the more traditional obstacles that we might see otherwise. A very common argument that you might sort of come across as a professional when you're working with couples going through divorces, there's no way you need to spend all that on X, y, z or you spend way more than that or you haven't mentioned that.
Steven Hennessy:
You know cash account you've got with you know xyz, uh, building society, all that stuff. If you can just remove that straight away and get down to some creative, you know um solutions and looking forward and and you know the dynamics got to be right. You know and that's just from experience really is feeling like no, they're both in this. To to be fair to each other, the first time I did this work was client a married couple of mine clients of mine, should I say who had known each other since school, growing up in the same village, and we're divorcing, and which I said we just we don't know how to be fair to each other. They would. You know it wasn't like you see, you know on the tv, I'll see you in court. It was just we just want to be fair.
Steven Hennessy:
But we've got all this complicated stuff.
Steven Hennessy:
You know businesses and there was a farm involved and things like that, and it was a real complicated issue and they were trying so hard to be fair so some people might say that and actually then you pick up on some you know coercive behaviors going on and again that I don't think that would be appropriate for me to act as a neutral in that position, you know. But then you've got to be sort of gently guiding towards the right professionals to get them good outcomes. But otherwise, you know, it does still come back to just that long-term data gathering, financial planning. But doing it with each other means that they, you know, they aren't going to be sort of stressing that this is disadvantageous or something's been left out, because they've done that comprehensively and transparently and methodically with an objective third party. And once I've done that work, that work's done's done, it's a project, it's a one and done um so it's. You have to be quite selective about, I think, the couples that you work with in that sort of um setting yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
Tamsin Caine:
I've got a question that I've not prepared you for in the slightest, so it might be a bit off the hoof and you might be like, yeah, that's not a question, I'll answer. Um, but I'm kind of thinking, when you're looking at, when you're looking at a couple's models you so you've got that, you've models each of their futures. What we quite often find is and this might be a general, sweeping statement, but it, even in 2024, is generally the case we might have a husband who works, has got a good career, earns a lot, wife who gave up work to bring up the kids, maybe in the late 40s, early 50s, haven't got a massive career. I'm thinking, if I create two cash flow models for those two people with the best will in the world, if you get to a financial settlement, his future is probably, even on the fair route, gonna look better than hers. How do you get over that?
Steven Hennessy:
yeah, um, again, the the particular circumstances are really important. You don't want to flash something up on a screen that looks dreadful for one person and fantastic for another person, especially when, in that example, the husband's minded to deal with that issue. It's like he's well aware. Well, look, you know, I I could pretty much start over, but based on my income, I would very quickly be okay, you know. So you've that's really delicate issue to flash about.
Steven Hennessy:
Again, I'm much more comfortable when I'm working as a neutral, if there are other professionals involved, whether that's a mediator or you know, perhaps they've got they're working with lawyers, either individually or increasingly seeing sort of one family, one lawyer model happening where you can set their expectations before you flash any pictures up saying, well, obviously we know that you know, as things stand with the income, there's going to be a disparity here. But that's what we're going to try to address as fairly as possible. And you know, don't get too excited about these graphs early on, because there's a whole lot of you know. That's what we're now going to do is start dealing with that asymmetry. So, yeah, you've definitely got to approach it carefully and definitely it's something that can only deliver better outcomes if you're working with other professionals who can work individually with those clients to sort of again reinforce the overall message.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely, I really appreciate that. Thank you, sorry for putting you on the spot with that one.
Steven Hennessy:
No, yeah, that's a great question.
Tamsin Caine:
We are coming to the end of our time together, sadly, because I think I could talk about this stuff all week, month, um, is there anything that I haven't asked you, that I should have asked you?
Steven Hennessy:
no, I say I'm still a bit surprised that it wasn't obvious to you that I'm a gym bunny. I can't believe that. Um no, I mean this has been a really nice just to sort of talk show. I love your podcast. You know you got through the 100th episode recently. Congratulations to you. I'm sure you'll get to 200 comfortably. And so many people I speak to whether it's in our industry or family lawyers, family consultants also listen to it. So more strength to your elbow, mate oh, thank you very much.
Tamsin Caine:
Thank you for joining me, steve, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for listening and we will be with you again soon. If you've enjoyed the podcast yourself, if you could leave us a glowing uh review, that would be amazing. Um, and please do follow us so that you don't miss any episodes. Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic.
Tamsin Caine:
I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.