Diana Jordan
I work with litigants in person many of whom are leaving an abusive relationship. I support parents whose former partners are narcissists and are using the courts to continue their abuse. I deal with cases labelled as "high conflict" which more often than not simply means no-one knows which is the abusive parent and it's easier to blame both of them for the problems. I help parents in cases of parental alienation as well as some who have false allegations of parental alienation made against them by the abusive parent.
With over 25 years experience in the legal profession I am able to give guidance and information throughout the process of separation and divorce. Some clients wish to do as much as they can of the legal work themselves and I assist them with form-filling and letter writing, referring them to the best mediators, financial advisors, solicitors, and direct access barristers as and when appropriate.
I enjoy finding creative solutions to the different challenges faced by families in transition. Although I work with parents, securing the best outcomes for their children is my primary focus. My skills as a life coach assist clients to gain clarity in their situation and to move forward in a planned and constructive way. I use my knowledge of personal and spiritual development to empower clients to own the process and make their own decisions; I encourage clients to be and do their very best during a hugely difficult time of change.
Diana's book: How to Divorce a Narcissist - order here
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianacjordan/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DealingwithDivorce/
Twitter / X: https://twitter.com/DwDivorce
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. I am happy to be joined today by lovely Diana Jordan. We started chatting before I pressed record, and there was a real danger we were going to be there all day. So I've pressed record so that you can all join in our conversation. So to introduce Diana to you, she is a former family law solicitor who special specialised in children proceedings. She now works with litigants in person, going through the family courts, helping them to prepare their paperwork and prepare them for court hearings and appointments with CAFCASP, social workers, etc. And we were just talking about the fact that she feels very deeply about helping families, particularly where there are children involved, to make sure that they get reasonable outcomes, although that can be easier said than done. Most of Diana's clients are leaving narcissistic and abusive relationships, and these cases have to be dealt with differently, which unfortunately most lawyers don't understand. Diana is the author of How to Divorce a Narcissist and Succeed in the Family Court, and has been amazed thousands of copies have sold all over the world. I am less surprised by that because everybody seems to be absolutely fascinated or fascinated might be the wrong word, but um feel that that this topic is one that really needs to be focused on and discussed. I know that our previous episodes where we've covered divorcing a narcissist have been among the most downloaded um in our series. So Diana, thank you for joining me today.
Diana Jordan:
Oh, lovely to see you, Tamsin.
Tamsin Caine:
And you and you. We're recording this on a Monday morning, so please bear with us. My teeth definitely aren't in quite yet. Um things will improve as we as we move forward. So we're going to talk today about um about I'm gonna say planning a divorce, but but the early, very early stages of you've decided that you need to leave, you've been told that the other party is leaving, or there's a joint decision, which I think probably is the rarest of those occasions. What I think could be really useful to begin with, Diana, if it's okay with you, is to is to set some kind of definitions around a narcissist, because this word is being used very, very, very prevalently. Um a lot of people contact me and and say they believe they're divorcing a narcissist. And I think it's really important that we get some definitions and we get some um understanding of what a narcissist actually is. Are you actually divorcing a narcissist or are you divorcing somebody who's not a very nice person? Or you may have been in an abusive relationship, but it the other person isn't necessarily a narcissist. So can we start with what is a narcissist?
Diana Jordan:
People, when they come to separate or divorce, may react in pretty horrible ways, which does not make them a narcissist, but they will probably behave in narcissistic ways because when it comes to divorce, everyone's out for themselves, aren't they? Rather than um thinking about us, it's now uh me. So they may well behave in narcissistic ways, but a narcissist will have been like that since you met them, but the mask may not have slipped, and it's yeah, normally when people come to me, they have realized and they may have lived with it for 30 years and and not realized. A lot of them just think they're dealing with a tricky person, a difficult behavior, and they'll have been told a sob story about their childhood, and they'll be trying to fix them. So they'll have known there's something wrong. Um, whereas if they suddenly display that behavior uh on divorce, that is not a narcissist. Um the other big difference is these people who behave very badly when it comes to separation and divorce, they will calm down. So after a year or two, you will be able to co-parent with them. Whereas with a narcissist, this is gonna get worse, not better. So a narcissist will counterparent, not co-parent.
Tamsin Caine:
So oh, wow, counterparent, that's not a phrase I've heard before.
Diana Jordan:
Oh really?
Tamsin Caine:
Oh, no, no, yes. Do tell us what a counterparent is, because we've heard we've we've talked on the podcast about parallel parenting, um, but we we've not ever touched on counterparenting. So yeah, tell us.
Diana Jordan:
Well, that's why you have to do the parallel parenting because you can't co-parent, because the other parent is destroying everything you're trying to do. So they will just do the opposite, yeah. So they're the ones that don't send the clothes back with the the child, everything's always missing, broken, whatever. And they're trying to alienate the children from the other parent, whatever. Yeah, I mean, there's it's difficult, isn't it? It's horrendous. Yeah. Um, but the the lack of empathy is the hallmark probably of the the narcissist, and I mean if people look back throughout their relationship, they can probably see it, but which they may not have have seen before. So yeah, it's I'd say it's a sudden worsening of behavior but not new behavior. So yeah, you're right, it is important to distinguish the two, because if it's somebody that's just behaving badly because of the separation and divorce, you want to give them time before you start any divorce proceedings or financial negotiations, they're not in the headspace to do that, so forget that. Just give them time, try and you know, make it a workable situation so that they can calm down and deal with things rationally. Whereas for a narcissist, that is absolutely not going to work. You don't want to give them time, you've got to get on with it because the time you give them will just make them worse because the narcissist is probably out to destroy you if you you've left them. That's your you're gonna be punished if not destroyed wherever more. Um so you've got to save your sanity, protect your children, and get whatever money you can out of it. So, yeah, very you're right, it's important to know what you're dealing with.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, those are very different, very different, completely opposite ways of dealing with so it so the first thing is we need to know what we're dealing with. Okay, so so let's start, let's think about um about sort of planning. So let's assume for for a few minutes that that we're dealing with somebody who is thinking of leaving. Now, we know that if you're in an abusive relationship, you may well have tried to leave before. It's I think the average is seven times to leave uh an abusive relationship. So so I guess we don't if if you've tried to leave before, or if this planning that we're gonna talk about now doesn't work and you end up going back, this isn't about us saying this is how to do it the perfect way. We know that it's really difficult to leave an abusive relationship. But what we want to do is have you equipped so that if you are gonna leave, you do it in the most sensible, safe, well planned, structured way. If you end up going back, that that's kind of how it often works. So there's no judgment or criticism. But we want you to to be able to do it in the in the safest possible way. So you've decided that you've had enough. What's what are some of the first things that that we need to be thinking about or doing?
Diana Jordan:
What I always say is you need to plan it like a military operation. Because if you go charging into battle, you're likely to lose the war because you have not thought it right through, somebody's upset you, you've gone charging in, and yes, you might win that particular battle. Well, you might not if it's the narcissist, but um, but you've got to look right to the end, and so the first thing you've got to work out is where you want to end up. You've got to have a goal for the end, which and people do pick their own goals. So the narcissist's goal will be either to destroy you or to keep getting narcissistic supply, because the narcissist's partner is their primary source of narcissistic supply throughout that relationship. And if you're gonna leave, that supply is threatened, which is why their behaviour escalates, because they're desperate not to lose that constant uh source of supply.
Tamsin Caine:
Okay, let's before we move on, let's just explain what narcissistic supply is for just for anybody who's not aware and that hasn't sort of come across that phrase before.
Diana Jordan:
So a narcissist, because they've got no internal resources of their own, they feed on other people's. So um often their fear. So if you show your fear, they love that. Um, that's one source of supply. Or if it's someone that makes you angry, um, they love to see you get angry or upset. Um, you know, your tears that will frighten off most normal people, they absolutely love to see that. Um yeah. Um so that that's that's the sort of thing they thrive on. And also, of course, your adoration and attention. So the fact that you're looking after them, you know, mothering them, whatever, is all part of their supply that they're about to lose. So it's a huge threat to their being. And that's why you've got to plan this so well. Okay. So most so for a lot of people, their end goal could be a peaceful life. Sure. Or it could be to protect their children. Okay. They're kind of realistic goals to aim for. Unfortunately, a lot of them pick less realistic goals, which you know, they're fed up to the back teeth with this narcissist, and they want to call out their lies because that's what a narcissist does. And the lies are very upsetting to people, especially the lies about them, the smear campaigns that they run, and so the victim might be out to um call them out on this and have everybody see this. It's very difficult to do. The narcissist is more persuasive. Um, it doesn't work, it's not a realistic goal. Realistic goal is to get out and get stay safe, have a peaceful life. Okay. So we start with the end in mind. We start with the end in mind. And we and we keep the end in mind when the going gets tough because it world does get tough.
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely. And you will have had this as well, but I've had a number of clients question whether they've actually done the right thing, even quite a long way down through the process because it's hard and and there will still be abuse post-separation, unfortunately.
Diana Jordan:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
And it ramps up, as you've as you've rightly said, you know, it's it doesn't go away because you separate, because they're not getting that narcissistic supply as as they hope they would. So with that, with that end in mind, constantly, how do we go about planning to leave?
Diana Jordan:
I would just say there are a few people who probably shouldn't leave. The people, the people who really regret it because of the terrible state of our family courts, the people who really regret it are uh the people who can no longer protect their children. Because the narcissist very often is not interested in the children, they play a very small part in their children's lives, unless the some of them are great, you know, fun dads who get a lot of supply from their children's adoration of them. So some of them are involved with their children, a lot of them are more interested in making money or having affairs or whatever they're off doing, and they've had very little to do with their children. Once they're separated, they go to court and they get at least 50% of the time with their children, and they're abusing their children, and then the other parent is saying, Well, I shouldn't have left. At least I could protect them. Yes, he would do this, but at least I was there and I could stand between him and the children and stop him shouting at them, hitting them, whatever he's doing, and now I can't, and I should have stayed. So that is the first thing for a protective parent to consider. Um, yeah, it it's dreadful, but is it actually worse if they're completely out of your orbit and you can do nothing? So assuming that's not the case, or that the family court's gonna make better decisions sometime soon. Um what what do you what do you need to to do? Um and yeah, so the first thing you've gotta decide is where you're gonna go. That's the biggest uh the biggest decision. Can you afford another home? Because it's very unlikely the narcissist is gonna leave their home. Very unlikely indeed. I had one recently, I still don't know what made him leave, but he did, which is great. But um normally you've got to assume it's you that's gonna be the one to leave. So where are you gonna go? Um, so if the abuse is very bad, so bad that you can't stay, then one option is to go to a refuge and apply from there for an occupation order so that you can get back into the house with the children. Otherwise, it's do they have enough money to rent somewhere? Um, and the people that do are the fortunate ones, you've got to plan all this and do it without the narcissist knowing, which is why you know it can be a year or two to actually plan your leaving. Um so you've got to get your team of people around. You can't do this on your own. Of course, if you've really been in a narcissistic relationship, you're likely not to have many people around you. The narcissist will have isolated you from your friends and family. So first court of call will be a domestic abuse charity. Hopefully support from from there. Um you can get support on in online groups. Um, but it it's really time to and a therapist or a coach or both will be invaluable, but it's and hopefully they can empower the person to make some more friends at that at that point. Um because once you get into court and court proceedings, you know, who you're gonna ask to look after the children while you go to court and things like that, you've really got to think ahead right ahead. It's not enough just to think, oh, I'm gonna be able to rent this place and we'll move out and oh be wonderful. No, it won't, it'll get worse. Um, they'll take you to court, and yeah, you you've got to think right through to the end. How are you gonna get to this peaceful end?
Tamsin Caine:
So, where are you gonna go? How are you gonna pay for it if it's a cost implication? Potentially contact local um domestic abuse charities, particularly if you need a refuge, if if it's not safe for you to stay where you are.
Diana Jordan:
Yeah, so they will so you need to ask them to do a risk assessment to see, because as we know, the time of separation is the most dangerous time for people leaving abusive relationships. So that risk assessment is really important so that you know where you are, where you're starting from. Because yeah, um, how are you actually going to do that?
Tamsin Caine:
I guess from a financial perspective, even if it's if it if you've got the money to afford to pay rent and so on, the narcissist is going to do everything within their power to limit your resources because they are going to try destruction, aren't they? So they're gonna try, they're not they're gonna close down anything that they've got control over, you're not gonna have access to it. They're gonna shut that down. And even from a work perspective, even if you're lucky enough to have been in a narcissistic relationship and have employment, which from my experience is a limited number of people that that applies to. But even if you are lucky enough to be in that position, they will probably do everything within their power to halt that as well. So they won't be looking after the children so you can go to work, they won't be doing drop-offs and pickups to enable you to continue to work, etc. So you've got to have a plan around all those things as well, and enabling yourself to continue to earn money because otherwise everything will be cut off.
Diana Jordan:
Yep, and not only that, if they're into a a smear campaign, are they gonna try and um contact your boss and work and say that you know you're not fit to be there, or whatever they're they're gonna do, try and to try and get you to lose your job.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah.
Diana Jordan:
Um, and uh, you know, if they are both working, they're likely to have a big mortgage. What's gonna happen to that? Because they will stop paying. Can you afford the full mortgage and the rent? Or what's gonna happen to your credit score?
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah.
Diana Jordan:
So you've gotta be thinking you'll know more about this? What do they need to ask for a mortgage holiday, or how does that?
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah.
Diana Jordan:
How does that work? Does that last long enough to get through two or three years of court proceedings?
Tamsin Caine:
I mean, probably not. There are a number of banks who um the lovely Rosie Lyon, who's been on the podcast before, is who is now Rosie Parker because she has married a wonderful man. Um, but uh Rosie's been campaigning for banks to change the way in which they deal with um with people who've been in abusive relationships, recognising the what the abuser is likely to do, their playbook, how they're likely to deal with these things and what the situation they're going to be left with is. But we're not we're in a place where there are some changes made, but not to the extent that that we need or would like. You know, mortgage there you can have a mortgage holiday um or go on interest only for six months, but six months is unlikely to be long enough to proceed through the court um to a six months. Yeah, yeah, it's only six months, it's very short.
Diana Jordan:
Oh, so yeah, that is not not long enough. No, so they're gonna have to start divorce proceedings, uh make an application for interim maintenance to cover mortgage payments in that, yeah.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, as soon as yeah, as soon as you've l left. What about before before you leave? We're doing the we're in the planning stage, we're thinking about where where we're gonna go, how we're gonna support ourselves and the children. Are there things that should be like removed from the house?
Diana Jordan:
Absolutely, yes. I was just gonna say that. So the most important thing is often the children's passports, um, because yeah, the last thing you want to be worrying about is the children being abducted. So children's passports, birth certificates, so the other parent can't get a new um passport that quickly. Um yeah, your own marriage certificate to stop them. Oh, you can get one fairly quickly, but you know, it does hold up the divorce process. Um so yeah, all your documents and yeah, if you've got the time to do it, financial documents as well. Um, because very often it's the narcissist who's been in control of all the finances. So um you've got to get a grip on that as well as everything else. So copies of the documents, if you can't take them all, um yeah, so that you can go to a financial advisor and find out what your situation is, which is a bit hard to do if you know nothing and have got don no documents to um to show it. So, yeah, mortgage statements, bank statements, pension documents, so that you can at least get copies of these if you don't even know who the mortgage provider is, for instance, which you know some people don't.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, it's often the case, isn't it, that people don't know what what they've got. And and on that, you can only you can only complete financial disclosure with bits that you do know. You can't, and a lot of people I've met worry about this, but you can't disclose things that you don't know, and that you know, that's okay, nobody's gonna expect you to.
Diana Jordan:
No, but the problem is the the narcissist is gonna hide as much as they possibly can. And if you don't even know that they've got something to hide, you've lost that before you even start. Um, and some people suspect that there's things going on in the background. Well, before you leave is the time to do some digging. So, yes, before you leave is also a very important time to collect evidence, whether that's for children or financial proceedings or both. Um, so if the other parent is abusive to the children, what evidence have you got of that? And if not, you better collect some quit because without it, you're not going to be able to protect the children in family court. So um
Tamsin Caine:
what does that evidence look like? What what sorts of things would you would you suggest we're looking for?
Diana Jordan:
Well, if there's any physical injury, certainly photographs of that are the best possible evidence. Um also recordings of the abusive parent. Now, these are difficult in court proceedings, um, and recordings of children are very much frowned upon, but sometimes they can be used, and they can certainly be used. You can transcribe a recording and put it in a statement. Um so I would always say get as many recordings as you can. We'll worry later about whether and how they can be used in evidence, but collect it now. Um, and also write everything down. But of course, the narcissists are very good at um stalking you and getting into your emails and everything else. So, how are you gonna keep this evidence safe? Are you gonna email it to somebody else and then delete your emails or what are you gonna do? But however you do it, um write it down. We need a daily log of what they're doing. Um, and and that is good enough evidence, but people think they'll remember something awful's happened. Um, yes, of course they'll remember it was Monday the 10th of October or whatever it was. Um, but of course they won't because two years later, so many other dreadful things have happened, they haven't got a clue when it was, and it's far less convincing, or certainly far more convincing if you can say, yes, it was Monday the 10th of October, this happened, and I've got a note of it. However, that note is made.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely.
Diana Jordan:
Um and there's also social media. So, you know, if this person is splashing the cash, um, let's have screenshots of that because you know, magically that's all gonna disappear when you get into court in financial proceedings, and uh you've got no evidence of that at all. So that's what I say, it is a military operation, everything has got to be thought through and and planned to you know to get the most successful outcome.
Tamsin Caine:
Sure. Crikey Okay. And yeah. Obviously, you're not gonna file for. I mean, I'm saying obviously, but maybe it's not obvious. You're not going to file for divorce proceedings until you've left the family home because that's going to be sent to your ex. So it's not a good idea to pre warn them.
Diana Jordan:
So it's absolutely it's absolutely. not and the best way to leave is for them to have no idea and just come home to find your note um that you've that you've gone and the important thing is to leave a note which says you have gone because of their abusive behaviour and you take a photograph of that note as you've got this is the last bit of your evidence before you you leave um because otherwise they come up with all sorts of excuses about why you've left but you've put that marker down yeah now and would you because it uh you're gonna be take taking the children with you do you therefore I mean I know you you wouldn't want them to have to know where you've gone to but do you have to should you have to tell them because of children or do you not have there's no responsibility to have to inform somebody of where you're going and where you're taking the children or is that they're a kind of well they've you know you could be under threat of being accused of abduction type of thing what's what's the legal situation with that? Well you're not taking them abroad so it's not going to be abduction. Yes once you've gone you should let them know that you've gone and the children are okay and if it's safe for them to have a video call with the children you know depending on their relationship with the children um you would keep some of that going but yes you've you should tell them again you know you've had your risk assessment done by the domestic abuse agency what is safe how how much can you let them know but you know they're a narcissist they're gonna find you pretty quick it's you know um but yeah for the moment you you take them and um if you think the narcissist has got wind that you're doing this it's probably best not to send the children to school that day you leave them with somebody else so that once you've moved the children you can take the children because otherwise does the other parent get wind of it and turn up to the school the school can't do anything if they've got parental responsibility the school will have to hand them over and then you're stuck in your new place without the children and the children are back in their old home with the narcissistic parent so that's all in vain. Um which is why you know you absolutely mustn't tell them that you're gonna go once you tell them that you're wanting to leave or or divorce you're declaring war and it will be outright war. So you know you've got to pull the rug from under them if you possibly can I mean it all depends on the narcissist. I mean some of them are a lot worse than others and some you can get out from under their feet without terrible consequences. So yeah we're probably talking the worst cases here. It's a lot isn't it you know it's an awful lot. It is you know and these people are in a dreadful state to start with because they've been living with this controlling person for all this time to suddenly take control of their own lives and their children's lives in this much detail it's a lot to ask which is why I say take your time if it takes you a year or two to to get out so be it but let's do it properly.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah absolutely um we are I mean I could talk to you about this for hours if I'm brutally honest but we are we're probably better not um so can you let our listeners and viewers know firstly how can your book help and secondly how do you work with with clients who do come to you and know you're not taking anybody on at the moment because you're absolutely swamped and because everybody who's in this position needs a Diana in their camp and uh we haven't cloned you yet so but but start off with the book how can how can the book help?
Diana Jordan:
Well the book talks you all the way through it and yeah a lot of people say it's their Bible and it will talk you through the perils of the family court and tell you what to do when because people don't know where to start and they think they need to start by going to a solicitor and they absolutely don't they should be coming to you first not a solicitor at the class and they think they need a divorce but the only thing a divorce gives them is the ability to remarry and most of the people I talk to are ready for that so we do not need a divorce okay before before we go anywhere near that we need to know our financial situation. Yeah we we need to understand that if you're divorcing a narcissist you will never get what you're entitled to so instead you want to be looking at what you can live with or what you can live without I mean this is where it gets difficult with solicitors because they don't understand the narcissist. So they don't understand that their client's sanity is actually more important to them than getting the extra even if it is thousands and thousands they're entitled to you know there's plenty more money in the world we've just got to work out how to get it where it's needed your sanity how do you get that back yeah so long time what can you yeah what can you live with what do you need and then you inflate it because the narcissist always has to win yeah and and this is what you know the lovely people leaving the narcissist oh I just want what's fair yeah okay if we're gonna get you what's fair we've got to inflate it you know let's decide what the minimum you need to live on. We'll add 30% to that and the narcissist will gradually bring you down and they will have won which is all they're interested in because you've come down from this is your absolute standard point. And you've got what you can live on. But again you see solicitors will say oh you've got to be reasonable it's not reasonable to us that they don't understand that you're not dealing with a person who's any sort of reason and this is where we we need to start. So yeah they need to see you first and be very clear about where they're what they're aiming for and how they're gonna gonna get there.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah absolutely okay so the book's gonna talk them through all of that the book's gonna talk them through step by step how to how to plan how to what to think about how to set your goals how to the whole gamut how to deal with the narcissist I guess the important thing to say at this point is don't don't buy the book and keep it in the house keep it somewhere safe is the family home is the absolute worst place that you can that you can put that book um it's it's got to be out uh external I wouldn't download it to your phone I wouldn't keep anything on your phone in your emails on your laptop because the likelihood is that those are being monitored and anything that you need to do borrow a friend's phone or you know have a separate phone that's kept at a friend's house or or something along those lines because your safety is really important and if it is yeah finds any of this yeah you're in your children's safety could potentially be at risk. So yeah let's not buy the book and have it delivered to home um let's have a separate device to download it onto or keep it at work and feed it anyone you draw at work but yeah that's not a bad idea um and so if if you ever do get to the point where you're taking clients on again Diana um what what work do you you do on a one-to-one basis with your clients?
Diana Jordan:
So I mainly work with litigants in person um either because they can't afford a solicitor because financial control has been part of the narcissist playbook um or because unfortunately most solicitors don't understand what they're dealing with and don't deal with it in the right way. So um I basically do the same as a solicitor but I don't have the headed notepaper so the client has to copy and paste what I draw for them and send it themselves. So whether that's to send to the other party's solicitor or to the court um but most of them can manage the copying and pasting and don't need the expensive headed notepaper. Although sometimes solicitors are useful but and um yeah so I can help them find a direct access barrister or yeah all the other professionals they may need or a McKenzie friend to go to court with them if they can't afford barrister.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah. You don't actually go to court you're not a McKenzie friend you don't working with the time for that time in court yeah I'll do I'll do online hearings which occasionally get but um no I won't go out to court anymore but I will find people other people who can who can and will yes and or an or an IDVA but yeah I don't know too many of them if you know any more of them the only private idva that I know is Karen uh Kipping who again we've had on the podcast discussing these issues um previously and I the the situation is that you can only get trained as an IDVA I believe if you work for one of the domestic abuse charities um and very few train and then and then go on externally to do to do the work privately. So yeah it's it's very and and there aren't enough even in the in the charitable sector because charities aren't receiving enough money there are too many people who are in this position and you know more and more um sadly are coming forward every day and I think in part it's becoming I don't not acceptable that's not the word but less of of something that you should hide that that feels as though it's your fault it's it's becoming more that the that it's publicly accepted that it's not the victim survivor's fault you know and and perhaps therefore people are are more willing to come forward but but also it feels like it's it's something that's becoming more prevalent in society which again is a an awful thing.
Diana Jordan:
But yeah risk abuse charities are under huge pressure in terms of the number of people that they need to support and so there just aren't enough IDVAS we need lots more people trained to do it um but maybe they absolutely do yeah because yeah I've never found any domestic abuse charity that will send anyone to court with a a client um normally because as you say they haven't got enough of them but even if they have they say oh we're not putting our staff at risk by sending them to court so the perpetrator knows who they are. So yeah it's really difficult.
Tamsin Caine:
It's a huge problem it's a huge problem um I know there was a big um conference over the weekend and I can't remember what it was called but I did um I did say on LinkedIn that um that Jess Phillips had attended a large conference um along with um Nicola Sharps Jeff's and the domestic abuse commissioner whose name escapes me at the minute so there is there is work being done uh in tandem with the uh Labour conference and hopefully there'll be some some movement in the work that they're doing I know that that they speak um passionately about their commitment to doing something but you know there there is so much going on in the UK at the moment that we're not sure whereabouts in their plans it it comes I think that's the that's the difficulty. Diana before we before we call an end to this um episode is there anything that you want to add anything that I should have asked you that you that you feel that is important to reiterate?
Diana Jordan:
Yeah be informed so yeah um knowledge is power so yeah read my book and there's our there are pages of resources at the back of the the book um your inclination is to stick your head in the sand and hope it will go away um it won't so yeah be as informed as you possibly can be um don't get too involved in informing yourself about the narcissist you want to inform yourself about where you're going how you're gonna get there the court process um people can get bogged down into the life of the narcissist um but that's really what you want to leave and move away from you've spent years trying to sort that out it hasn't worked leave them behind and move on
Tamsin Caine:
oh good advice that Diana good advice um a link to get hold of Diana's book will be in the show notes for this episode just these remains for me to thank Diana very much for uh coming along to talk to us before I'm sure that you four found this an incredibly useful episode. And if you have please do leave us a five star review because it does help us to get word out to other people and and spread the word and enable us to help more um more people who are in this position. So many thanks for listening or watching and we'll see you in the next episode. Hi and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website www.smartdivorce.co.uk also if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review that would be fantastic and I hope that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also if you would like some further support we do have a Facebook group now it's called Separation Divorce and Dissolution UK please do go on to Facebook search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay have a great day and take care