Trauma and Divorce

Tamsin speaks to therapist Anna Jackson about handling trauma in divorce. She discusses some of the methods which can help to deal with and recover from trauma.

Anna has over 30 years experience as a therapist working in the field of mental health within the NHS and private sector. She is an accredited Cognitive Behavioural Psychotherapist and is registered with the Health and Care Professions Council and the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. She is also a qualified Occupational Therapist, Hypno-psychotherapist and EMDR therapist.

Anna understands the emotional complexities of a relationship breakdown and the enormous value that experienced support and therapy can provide in the process of recovery. She has lived experience of the divorce process and specific knowledge and skills in the following areas:

  • Narcissistic abuse
  • Coercive and controlling abuse
  • Anxiety and stress management
  • Self-Compassion
  • Assertiveness training
  • Self-esteem work
  • Loss
  • Low mood
  • Sleep issues
  • Trauma

Anna specialises in providing support and therapy for people experiencing and recovering from a relationship breakdown. In addition, Anna supports local domestic abuse services by offering free sessions to teach anxiety reducing skills to people who have escaped abusive relationships.

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at or arrange a free initial meeting using She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…

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(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)

Tamsin Caine 0:06
Hello, and welcome to this Smart Divorce Podcast. I'm Tamsin Caine and I will be your host during this our series 6 of the podcast. We're delighted that you're joining us again, and hope that you really enjoy today's episode. During series 6 we'll be speaking to other divorce professionals who help in perhaps some of the more unusual ways. So we will be speaking to lawyers who deal with international divorce. We will be speaking child inclusive mediation, to name a few. I really hope that you enjoy today's episode. Let's jump right in. Hello, and I'm delighted to be joined today by very fabulous Anna Jackson. Hi, how are you doing?

Anna Jackson 0:58
I'm good. Thank you, Tamsin. Very good.

Tamsin Caine 1:00
Thank you for joining me. So Anna is an experienced therapist registered with the Health and Care Professions Council. She was trained in a range of therapeutic approaches, including CBT, EMDR, and hypnotherapy. And we're gonna make sure that she explains to us what all those things are shortly. During her career, Anna has become increasingly aware that specialist therapy skills can be of significant value to people during and following the breakdown of a relationship. This is particularly so if the therapist understands the very dynamics and I'm close by is at one end of the spectrum in the complexities of narcissistic abuse are at the other. And you'll know if you've listened to our podcast regularly that we have people who have experience of varying ends of those spectrums joining us to talk as well.

So Hi, Anna, I'd love you to start off by telling me what the different therapeutic approaches are that I talked about in the in the introduction. So shall we start with CBT? Can you can you explain what it is? What it means what it does? How it works?

Anna Jackson 2:17
Okay, yes, absolutely. So CBT stands for cognitive behaviour therapy. Often even that as a title doesn't really make much sense to anybody. But it involves looking at thoughts, feelings, and behaviours, in essence. So for any of us, going through life, incidents, create a thought. And then often from thoughts come our feelings, and then behaviours come as a result. Any one of us reacts in different ways from each other. CBT is about understanding our own way of responding to situations. So with regards to the breakdown of a relationship CBT can be really useful in spotting patterns of our own and patterns of our partner, and how we might choose to proceed as a result of that understanding.

Tamsin Caine 3:13
Okay, so I was talking to somebody last night, who was talking about her own experiences of CBT. And I'm afraid she was talking a little negatively, but, you know, different therapists, you know, suit different people as, as we know. And she she said to me, that to her CBT was having to work out which emoji you were kind of a range of faces that had different emotions, and it was working out which one it - does that ring true, about CBT with you? Or is, is that not quite what it is?

Anna Jackson 3:52
That confuses me actually, I don't know, I don't know, I've never come across that at all in my CBT career. It's not to say that another therapist might not use it. I don't know. But that's not what I use. And I completely get what you're saying, in that. Some therapists suit some people and not others. CBT isn't a fix all mode of therapy. And that's why I feel that being trained in a range of options gives people the choice. So if one isn't feeling right, or doesn't fit the bill for that person, then another one can be implied. And I'm still understanding where that person's at. So for some people CBT might be useful at one point of the therapy process. And then a different approach might be useful at another stage of somebody's life or you know, transition through a relationship breakdown. But, you know, the my description of CBT to you was a very basic level it you know, on a more complex level, you can treat things like anxiety, which again, you is linked to relationship breakdowns, often low mood. What else? Self esteem, self compassion, all of those things I failed, can be very much relevant to relationship breakdowns and starting again afterwards. So I'm sorry, I don't understand the emoji thing. But

Tamsin Caine 5:20
that's fine. Fine. I just wanted to ask you the question. And so is just so that I understand a little bit clearer is CBT, a talking a talking therapy? If I come to see you and have CBT? Am I sitting in a chair and you're sitting in a chair? And we're just talking? Or are there activities that we're going to be that we're going to be doing?

Anna Jackson 5:47
Great question. It does involve talking, it can also involve mapping out an understanding of what's going on for somebody in their life with their own thoughts, feelings, behaviours, and potentially, you know, how that interacts with other people. It's also a big part is the behavioural element. So it might be going out and experimenting or testing beliefs in certain situations as well. So yeah, there is an experimental side. And of course, all of that is done in conjunction with, well, it's collaborative. So I'm not going to be saying you need to go out and do this. It's something where I work with the client, and they decide what they want to work on. And together, we find a way forward that feels right and manageable, while sometimes pushing the boundaries a bit. So that new, I suppose new ways forward can be found and become comfortable if that's what somebody wants.

Tamsin Caine 6:45
So there might be a bit of mutually agreed homework to go ,

Anna Jackson 6:50
absolutely yes. I hate that word. It makes me sound like a teacher. And that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. But yes, there are homeworks I generally like to think that they are positive ones, you know, and I mean, what's the point of doing homework, it was not going to be beneficial? .

Tamsin Caine 7:07
Absolutely I think the reason I asked that was sort of because obviously some therapy just takes place largely within the room. And at that, at that time and place. And whilst you might process, what's happened and work your way through it in your mind is not necessarily a thing to go and do.

Anna Jackson 7:28

Tamsin Caine 7:30
More like there's there's actual things that you can work on the task related, let's say

Anna Jackson 7:37
Absolutely. I'm so glad you've asked that. Actually. a therapy session is one hour often in a whole week. It's not going to impact life that much unless there are opportunities to continue the process outside of sessions. So yeah, thank you for asking that they don't.

Tamsin Caine 7:59
So the next one on in your introduction is EMDR. What on earth is that?

Anna Jackson 8:08
Okay, great question. So first off, EMDR stands for eye movement, reprocessing and desensitisation. It's a therapy which is recognised by the National Institute of clinical excellence as being a treatment of choice for trauma. It can be used to treat other things as well. Describing it is possibly not the easiest thing. But in essence, when we go through a trauma in life, for example, our body and our mind process, store it in a way that is unique to each individual. So by using EMDR, we help that memory that is stored to be reprocessed, and stored again in a way that is less emotionally intense. So some people unfortunately in life, because life isn't always one smoother on is it have traumatic incidents in life, which leaves them with flashbacks, nightmares, recurring dreams that are difficult anxiety in everyday life. EMDR can help to treat all of that. So I've talked a bit about what it can do and what it works on. But it's called Eye Movement reprocessing because often it does utilise eye movements. Sometimes it can use other things to help reprocessed memory. So it's not just around eye movements. And I suppose describing it is is not easy, but in a session when people are undertaking EMDR Are they will discover that memories are processed very readily and more speedily than other talking therapists. So it's amazingly effective.

Tamsin Caine 10:15
Is EMDR. What I might know is tapping.

Anna Jackson 10:19
No, that's EFT.

Tamsin Caine 10:22
Might having said that letters mixed up.

Anna Jackson 10:25
It's all right. Easily done. Having said that people do use tapping as an alternative to eye movements actually in EMDR. So you're not far wrong. I just mentioned other things can be used. I didn't say that tapping can be. So yeah, thanks for asking.

Tamsin Caine 10:41
I'm really confused by this one. What am i What are you actually doing when you're doing EMDR? And this might be too difficult to explain, because we obviously want to explain so that people listening rather than just viewing can can understand. But I mean, I movement to me, I say, they blink or they close on their open?

Anna Jackson 11:08
Okay. It's a great question,

Tamsin Caine 11:11
I'm struggling?

Anna Jackson 11:13
Well, there is an EMDR association in the UK. And if anybody wants to check that out, it will give a whole host of explanations, but to be succinct, again, I would sit in a room with somebody. When undertaking EMDR, I would be at a slight angle from them. If we're doing the eye movements so that people don't look at me, they're looking at my fingers moving side to side, in a world, you know, I can, you know, from side to side, from my shoulder high outward to the length of my arm and then back again. And that gives people a good range of eye movements whilst they think about the trauma or keep part of that trauma in mind. And that naturally processes things. It sounds unusual, but it has been highly studied and researched. And it works.

Tamsin Caine 12:11
Amazing. That's amazing. I'm going to look at look into that a little bit more. I've never come across that. But that's it.

Anna Jackson 12:19
Yeah, it's not widely known. So I think questions are great. I'm sorry, I'm not as good as I'd like to be explaining exactly what goes on and how it works.

Tamsin Caine 12:27
When you when you tried to explain it without waving your arms around. Difficult, and the last one is hypnotherapy. Now, I've had hypnotherapy a couple of times. In fact, I had it for a good few months. It helped me through a real emotional trauma. I had a bit of a breakdown, and quite a long way posed for us, but it's one of the reasons that I suggest that people have therapy during their divorce. Because I think if you don't, it'll hit you like a train at some point. Absolutely. I can train and I used hypnotherapy, and it was fantastic for me. But I have to say, because I'm a cynical soul for No, which is not a great thing. But anyway, I am and when I went see the hypnotherapist I was a bit nervous because back when I was young hypnotherapy used well, hypnosis used to be done for people's entertainment. Used to get hit tests with their watches that you you would watch the watch swinging and you'd be hypnotised and they'd have you pretending to be a chicken or, you know, making yourself look really silly on stage. Yeah, I'm not very good at not being in control. So my fear was, what on earth are they going to do to me that I'm not going to remember that I'm not going to know about? And how is you know, I didn't even know if I could be hypnotised, I guess Yeah. And I'm going to ask you to describe it to us first and then I'll I'll perhaps how you a bit more about my experience with it. But but what's your view of of what hypnotherapy is and how it can help?

Anna Jackson 14:16
Okay, well, first of all, I'm really grateful for your introduction of it there and your perception because you're not alone. That's a really common set of concerns. And I think entertainment hypnotists have obviously been more widely viewed and Clinical Hypnotherapist because it's a confidential service. It's not something that is out there for people to view. Because it is confidential, it's a personal thing. So clinical hypnotherapy is about helping people to induce a trance like state within a session. So any of us at any point in well, not at any point in life, but all of us have the capacity To induce a trance for ourselves so for me it might be lying on the beach I'm sort of in that half awake, half asleep state, some people driving to work, they're not thinking what gear Am I in? Which way am I going now they're just driving to work on automatic pilot, that's a trance like state as well. So we can all access that on a daily life when we're in a comfortable position. So it means that you can think about other things whilst you whilst you're driving, for example. So in clinical hypnotherapy, we help someone to induce that very relaxed state. And during that state, we can allow somebody to be receptive to the suggestions they want to be receiving. So we would talk a lot beforehand about what messages they want to have strongly within themselves, how they want to go forward in life, what they want to come to terms with all of those sorts of things would be included in the therapy session. The question about control is a great one. Any point, if, if a hypnotherapist says something to somebody that doesn't agree with their belief system, their values, or anything about their sense of what's right and wrong, somebody will immediately come out of the trance. That's just the way it works. So at no point still somebody Yeah, it is. So the people if we go back to entertainment hypnotists the people that are on the stage want to be up there, doing the dark things eating on you and wandering around in their underpants or whatever. You know, it's not something that somebody going for a clinical hypnotherapy session is going to want to do. And if any therapist said anything, that wasn't appropriate, the person wouldn't be able to keep in the trance that be aware and awake and wondering what the heck's going on? So it's, it's, it is a safe practice from that regard. And you would immediately come out of it. Yeah. I haven't answered anything else. I haven't answered the question.

Tamsin Caine 17:15
So that, that, your description of that, of that being on the beach and being half awake and half asleep is is of a really good description of is very much how, how I felt I was. So the hypnotherapist that I went to sat me down made me comfortable on a sofa. We talked for a long time, as you said about the situation about things that I was concerned about things that I wanted to work on. And before she hypnotised me, she put a blanket over my knees because they do body temperature sometimes drops when you go into this this. It it's a very deeply relaxed state, isn't it? salutely? Yes, state that you're talking about? And? And then, as I was going through it, at no time, did I not know what was going on? I knew exactly what she was saying to me and exactly what was happening. Yeah, when I came round again, I didn't remember what had been said and what happened. But I knew at the time that I felt safe and comfortable with everything that was being said to me,

Anna Jackson 18:22
absolutely. That's the key, really. And if anybody goes to any therapist, it's absolutely vital that you feel comfortable with them. If you don't, if you meet a therapist, and you don't feel comfortable, don't pursue it like that. It really is a key to any successful therapy, you've got to feel you can trust the person you're with, otherwise, it's not going to work. So I suppose with hypnotherapy, people have got to want to allow themselves to get into that relaxed state. Otherwise, it won't work. And that's fine. Everybody's different. But that's the good thing about having other therapeutic approaches available, I suppose.

Tamsin Caine 19:02
Yeah, absolutely. I have to say that when, after my sessions, I always went home and I was exhausted, absolutely exhausted, I'd have to go to bed for a few hours and sleep. I felt like I'd because it's to do with your subconscious processing. It's working really, really hard during even though you're in this deeply relaxed state, to just come out and feel so tired. And then the other thing I experienced was very, very vivid, bizarre dreams, the kind of coming few days which which my therapist had me writing down and sort of exploring those with her next, when I just find it a really fascinating process for me. Yeah, it was because it felt like we were actually working on something rather than just talking about something for me. I felt that it was that we were just taking steps forward

Anna Jackson 20:00
Yeah, absolutely. And what you've just said about, you know, dreams or other ideas coming to you between the sessions is that is part of the natural human desire to heal. So once you've opened that idea of healing and addressing issues, your body will naturally provide the next thing to work on, which is exactly what happened. How fantastic that's great a

Tamsin Caine 20:29
Fascinating. It's not, it's not the first place I would have started. It was suggested to me by one of my colleagues, actually, who said, why don't you go and say, why don't you go and see a lady called Susan, why don't you go and see Susan, because she deals with, you know, trauma. And and yeah, what an experience it was. It was fantastic. Okay, I mean, that's really useful to to hear what those different. Those different types of therapies are. How? How do you go about? Because we've talked about different people suit different therapies? And do you have a conversation in the first instance with somebody who's going through relationship breakdown about the different therapies that are available? And what might suit them? Or would you be more of more like a pharmacist and say, think this would be best for you? Or how does that process work?

Anna Jackson 21:35
Very good question. I do meet with people. First of all, in fact, I meet people, it can be just a conversation for 15 minutes to talk about what their issues are, they can ask me questions that are sort of, you know, free of charge, and a chance for them to decide if they want to bother meeting me or not completely fine. When I do meet with people. We have a conversation about the issues that are going on for them. Everybody has a chance to ask me questions about what I could offer, and I will, it's the collaboration really, between clinical judgement and somebody's wishes. So, as you've just, you know, asked a lot of questions about different sorts of therapists, I might have an idea as a clinician, which four might be more helpful in the situation that somebody's in, in that particular moment. But it would be an honour, you know, it's definitely up to the person coming to see me to decide which one they want to pursue first. Yeah, because who am I to say what's best for somebody if they know their situation? It's, it's, it's about my expertise and their expert view of their situation joining together and coming to a decision rarely. Yeah. And that can move throughout therapy potentially. So you know, at the beginning of seeing somebody, for example, it might be a really traumatic time in the midst of a relationship breakdown lows, that I was anxiety, no idea where to go, what to do, what decision to make, and then having a clinician saying, You know what, I think this might help you to feel less anxious and more settled in the current moment. How does that sound? And we'll get take it from there, you know, when things feel more calm, or if somebody knows exactly what they want, then we'll go with that. Yeah

Tamsin Caine 23:24
that's, that sounds really good. So we know that relationship breakdown is, is in itself a traumatic experience. And my recommendation to any of my clients is always to go and seek professional help with these things. Because what you don't want to do is download to your divorce lawyer who's charging you an absolute fortune per hour. Emotional issues, because they're also not qualified to deal with them. So yeah, I would always send somebody to a professional. But there is a whole kind of even more traumatic experience that that some people go through when their relationship breaks down because of abuse that they've experienced during that relationship. Whether whether it's a marriage or whether it's a you know, a cohabitation relationship or even, you know, even just not not a cohabitation, it might just must just be a relationship that's that's had abusive tendencies. How, how do you deal with those situations differently to how you would deal with somebody going through a I don't want to say normal, but you know what I mean, a non abusive relationship breakdown.

Anna Jackson 24:43
Okay, so how would I deal with it differently? I think I've alluded to a little bit about how I might deal with it differently the last answer, but you know, if somebody's going through, and I agree with you, there is no necessarily normal relationship breakdown because everybody's individual All relationships are different. But some might be less traumatic than others, I suppose maybe that's the way I should phrase it. So in those situations, I think people going through that split, have possibly more space in their mind. psychological makeup, I like to think, Okay, what do I need from therapy, and they can come with a very clear idea of their aims and goals and needs and wishes. Which makes it a bit more straightforward. When somebody is in the midst of an abusive relationship breakdown, it can be, it can be so what's the word? It can be, it can be so traumatic, I suppose that people are in a position where making decisions about therapy is beyond them. They can be bombarded with all sorts of psychological abuse, maybe physical stuff, if they're still engaged with that person in one way or another in the same environment. So in those scenarios, I think I would probably be offering what I think is the best type of therapy and allowing them to choose. So I think if somebody is still in the midst of traumatic scenarios, then hypnotherapy is the useful tools, allowing a little bit of downtime relaxation in the session, but also a recording that they can take away with them to use as downtime if they wish, just to allow that fight or flight response, a little bit of a, an opportunity to simmer down for a bit, if that makes sense. So, so hypnotherapy can be really useful in that way. Also, you know, people going through traumatic breakdowns might have struggled sleeping. So again, hypnotherapy recordings to help induce sleep can be another useful thing. There's a there's another therapy that I haven't actually talked about yet. And that's emotional freedom therapy. And that's can also be called tapping. And that's something where I can teach people to use technique, which helps them bring their own anxiety levels down quite quickly and easily. So that's another thing I can offer to people in a traumatic situation, because often, relationships that are involving abuse can end up going to court even that scenario is as arty provoking and concerning. So again, hypnotherapy, EFT can be really useful. The other once people are moving a bit further along in that relationship breakdown or maybe when the finished it in a traumatic setting. Managing the trauma is a big one. So and also understanding what has gone on for them coming to terms with the relationship itself. Sometimes people are in relationships, not realising. Actually, that person they were with had this nasty disorder potentially, in the case of narcissistic abuse, people could have long relationships with somebody and suddenly discovered they are not the person they thought they were, that takes quite a lot of coming to terms with so CBT can be useful in that scenario, helping people to understand find a new way forward and accept themselves in the way they were we're in that relationship, I suppose. So in terms of other traumas, so again, it could be physical, sexual, psychological EMDR is a really great one. So it doesn't take away memories, but it allows people to, I suppose, not feel the emotional intensity connected to the memory of the trauma. So each trauma can be worked on through EMDR. Or maybe a series of traumas can be worked on, and they're stored still within the person, but not with the same emotional intensity. So for me, having a range of clinical skills that can be utilised at different points in a relationship split up can be useful, and particularly if somebody is you know, that built up a relationship with a therapist. And repeating everything that's gone on again to a new therapist can feel like another ordeal that is not necessarily wanted to be experienced. So you know, hopefully, you know having all in one space allows people that choice to move from, you know, the initial stages of a relationship they break down through the process to it Living a satisfied happy life post split? Yeah,

Tamsin Caine 30:06
Absolutely. And I think the other thing is that you're not necessarily 100% fix that time, you know, you might finish that lot of therapy and something else might might just click, you know, later on, and you need to go back. And it's not, I think we're not great at therapy in this country and in our Americans tend to the all other therapists don't then and we're not quite at that point in this country. But, you know, I wouldn't hesitate. If I was feeling that I needed some additional emotional support, I wouldn't hesitate. But to go back and see a therapist again, you know, fine. You know, I think, I think it's not it's it's more a sign of strength and a sign of weakness to go and get yourself sorted so that you can be the best version of you out to the more we talk about it in this country, the more likely it is that it we normalised these things

Anna Jackson 31:07
Without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Tamsin Caine 31:11
Absolutely. So if somebody comes to work with you, and this may be a, an impossible question to answer, but how, how long would you? Would you expect to be working with somebody? Is it I'm assuming that the world wasn't conquered in one session? So I would expect it to be a series of different sessions. But what kind of average what how long would you expect? Or is that too difficult?

Anna Jackson 31:40
I think that's a great question. And you're absolutely right. That is a difficult one to answer. It depends what somebody wants to work on. You know, if somebody turns up saying, I'm really anxious, I can't sleep, I'm going through a divorce, I just want something to help me hypnotherapy to help me get off to sleep, so that I can manage each day more rested, then it probably wouldn't be many sessions at all, you know, we'd have an initial session and introduction to hit the therapy and recording and then they're off on the way that's fine. If it's a relationship that has lots of trauma, for example, I don't know narcissistic abuse where there might be lies, a smear campaign, relationships with family and friends have been impacted negatively. So their own natural support systems are not available anymore, then it would be a longer process, potentially. But that is something that I would always discuss with the person, it's not for me to decide it's up to that person. And where they're at with their struggles, or not as the case may be. Yeah. So I'm sorry, I can't be more clear on that.

Tamsin Caine 32:59
Would you it's from what you've said, I feel like it's a potentially a number of months rather than a number of years.

Anna Jackson 33:08
Yeah, I would. I mean, my way of working, I don't want people to be coming along to see me for years on necessarily, I don't think it's helpful for anybody, you know, the more minimal opportunity to get a good outcome is my way of thinking in all scenarios. Rarely. So, you know, if we can if we can tackle it in the lowest shortest number of sessions, and then somebody goes off practices, whatever we've done experiments. So with life, that's great. If they decide actually, there's a bit more I need to work on and pop back. Absolutely. I don't think I would ever be seen anybody for years. Unless, of course they wanted to in the traumas. But with EMDR, I wouldn't have thought that was necessary for very many people at all. So yeah, I don't know if it's properly answered, but definitely not yet.

Tamsin Caine 34:06
I would say my, I think I have encountered four or five sessions decided I was fixed and said no more right now. I don't need to see you again. And within a week, I was going no, forget that I'm not fixed yet. I need to kind of restart and it because it it didn't feel like we were there already. Kind of in the moment. I felt like a while. So I think that's something to be aware of, you know, even if you feel like you fixed one minute don't think you can't go back because therapists I'm sure are used to used to that situation.

Unknown Speaker 34:46
Yeah, that's very true. I mean, what I like to do is plan for endings of sessions. So you know, that the hopefully, you know, discussion around, you know, what do you need Going forward anything outstanding that we can just round things off with? And obviously, as you've just said, you know, there is opportunity to go back and redress things or, you know, if new things pop up, or you recognise things weren't resolved as fully as you wanted them to be, then yeah, absolutely. Go back and back to the drawing board.

Tamsin Caine 35:22
Absolutely. That's fantastic. Is there anything that we've not covered today that you would like to add?

Anna Jackson 35:30
I don't think so. No. Awesome. Nothing springs to mind.

Tamsin Caine 35:35
Fantastic. In that case, can you let our listeners and viewers know how they can get ahold of you if they would like to come and work with you?

Anna Jackson 35:45
Okay, well, my website is From there, there will be contact details. And I'm more than happy to have a conversation with people in the first instance, around what their needs are and what I can offer so they can make a decision on moving forward with me or not, if they wish, and totally up to people's choice. Yeah.

Tamsin Caine 36:14
Fantastic. I know it's been brilliant as always to chat to you, thank you for coming to join me. We will put a link to your website in the show notes from today. So people can just click on that and, and get ahold of you through your contact details on there. So thank you for joining me. Thank you buddy for listening today. I hope you've enjoyed that insight into some of the different therapies that are available. Thank you

I hope you enjoyed the episode of the Smart Divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website Also if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have Facebook group now. It's called 'Separation divorce and dissolution UK.' Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care!

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