This week family solicitor Karen Gray and divorce coach Sarah Steele join Tamsin to share their expertise on supporting domestic abuse survivors through divorce and separation, highlighting the vital importance of emotional support alongside legal guidance.
Sponsored by Ampla Finance
“To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance:
- Access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
- Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz
And one of the team will be in touch.
Sarah Steele
Sarah is an Accredited Breakup and Divorce Master Practitioner, ICF life Coach and NLP Practitioner. Sarah supports men and women navigate the emotional and practical complexities of their breakup or divorce. She specialises in supporting both men and women in abusive relationships, helping her clients to rebuild their resilience, confidence, effectively manage conflict and offers them practical strategies to safely exit the relationships, and create a life post breakup they deserve.
sarahsteelecoaching.com
sarah@sarahsteelecoaching.com
Karen Gray
"I have a keen interest in cases which feature domestic abuse and work closely with local refuges in the local area and also, further afield. I have a wealth of knowledge and expertise in this area and able to advise on obtaining protective orders, for example, non-molestation orders and occupation orders and am able to signpost people to obtain the support that they need to be able to deal with the trauma that is experienced.
I have dealt with numerous cases involving physical, emotional, psychological and sexual abuse and coercive and controlling behaviour. I have also represented many parents, grandparents and wider family members in complex children matters featuring domestic abuse.
I have Law Society Advanced Accreditation specialising in Children Law and Violence in the Home and am also a member of Resolution."
https://www.pathway-project.co.uk/
https://chadd.org/
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis. So we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away, so so if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening.
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast, something a little bit different in this series today, because I have two guests and we very rarely have two guests on because my menopausal brain doesn't work terribly well with talking to two people at the same time, so wish me luck. I'm delighted to welcome the lovely Sarah Steele, who is a divorce coach, and Karen Gray, who is a family solicitor. I'm going to let them introduce themselves in a lot more detail, but both of them work with clients who are in abusive relationships as well as other people, so I wanted them to come on and talk a bit about how they support people in those relationships. So I'm going to start with you, Sarah, if that's okay. Can you tell us a bit about your role as a divorce coach in divorce and helping people who are leaving domestic abuse relationships?
Sarah Steele:
Yeah, certainly.
Sarah Steele:
Well, I'm an accredited divorce coach and I train with Sarah Davison, where I also did my master practitioner, which is all about supporting both men and women who are in abusive relationships.
Sarah Steele:
So that's sort of where I've drawn my experience from, and her tools and strategies, obviously.
Sarah Steele:
So, as a divorce coach who deals with clients who are in abusive relationship, you know it's a very complex and overwhelming process of you know, of leaving an abusive relationship, and my role involves offering, you know, emotional support, helping clients rebuild their resilience, their confidence, manage their emotions, manage conflict, and offer them practical strategies, and, you know, to help them safely exit relationships. So I basically serve as a guide, as a supporter, as a cheerlead and a strategist really. But obviously, when you're dealing with clients who are in abusive relationships, it requires a very deep understanding of the unique, um you know, challenges faced by survivors. So, um, you know, what I do is I see men and women, um, and I tend to get my referrals either word of mouth, um, via karen or via a lot by my networking meetings actually. So, um, it's quite privileged actually to deal with uh, you know clients who are in abusive relationships, because it takes an awful lot of courage for them to reach out and and ask for help um.
Sarah Steele:
So So it's a very unique um position I find myself in um, but it's one I find a hugely rewarding
Tamsin Caine:
absolutely, um, and we'll come back to talk in a little bit more detail about how and when, but I think it's it's important to say you're a divorce coach, not a therapist, aren't you? And sometimes people might need a therapist as well.
Tamsin Caine:
It's, you're not replacing that,,
Sarah Steele:
okay, so I very much deal with the emotional side and the practical. You know complexities that are involved in that process, but it's all about empowering my clients, building their, building their confidence and I'm there to, you know, build their confidence and their resilience so they can make decisions, learn to make decisions for themselves, moving forward, and that's really important. You know generally life, especially through the legal process, but it's the courage and the strength that we draw on together in our sessions.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah Confidence and resilience is so often knocked, particularly when you have been the subject of abuse throughout your relationship, which you thought was a trusted relationship.
Sarah Steele:
So that's really important. We often hear this world you know this word that clients describing themselves as feeling annihilated and they do. They feel completely annihilated. Um, you know the shells of themselves. So you know, whilst divorce is an enormously you know traumatic event in anybody's life, um, to deal with the abuse side of it as well, um, and to actually sort of come out the other end, obviously I like working with clients post their divorce as well, just to build them up and to see them sort of go right from the basis of a feeling they can't even decide what they want for breakfast to a life for themselves outside their relationship, is quite something.
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely. It's a real privilege, isn't it it, to work with people post-divorce, and I I feel I'd feel a slight tinge of sympathy for um, the poor divorce solicitors who don't get to see that so much, because their role kind of stops when they're when the divorce stops. I'll bring you in at that point, Karen, and can you tell me a little bit about the work that you do?
Karen Gray:
Yeah, I'm a family lawyer and I specialise in cases that feature domestic abuse and I do the normal family lawyer finance, divorce, Children matters predominantly. And I'm accredited for I have a law society accreditation that specialises in domestic abuse cases and also children matters featuring domestic abuse. And I also work alongside. I work with Pathway Project and Chad Women's Refuges. Um, that I can go into a bit more detail in a bit um, but I work closely with them, providing legal advice to them and helping them and also bringing Sarah as a divorce coach into those dynamics to support legally and emotionally the clients me from the legal side of view point of view and Sarah to help emotionally so that we can ensure that their rights are protected. And Sarah can help with the emotional side of that and guide them through that and support them
Tamsin Caine:
absolutely it's. It's it's really important and I think so many people don't understand that you need it's not just about legal advice when you're getting divorced, you need the emotional support, you need the financial advice and you need the the legal advice as well. And and to have that that triangle funny, because we're sat in the triangle, but to have that triangle all covered is it is absolutely perfect, isn't it, I guess? I guess it would be useful. I'm going to start with you, karen, because I'm oh, I might be making an assumption that's not actually true here. I was going to start with you, Karen, because I'm, oh, I might be making an assumption that's not actually true here. I was going to say I assume that people come to you first generally. Um, Karen, so I was going to ask you how you would approach a case and and ensure that clients are prepared and protected, and then and then pass on to Sarah about when she's brought in and how she works with clients.
Karen Gray:
I guess that's the first question. Well, I suppose really, that clients come to us and they have a lot of, shall I say, and picking that needs to be done, and I think that once they kind of know what rights they have and we can take steps to go down the legal route of what we need to get, whether it's in, you know, injunctive relief or anything, protective orders, or make an application for, you know, urgent spas or maintenance or anything like that, and that Sarah can I recommend her to many of my clients that there's an option for them to contact her or we can. Sarah can contact them directly so that they can make the right decisions, not able to remember all the finite details. So Sarah kind of can help them, kind of sort their minds out and prepare them so that they can give good instructions, so that when they come and see me that they're kind of focused on that appointment, so that we can get all the legal stuff done. So it's cost effective for them effectively as well, and they've got emotional support.
Tamsin Caine:
So many people do use their solicitors as an emotional crutch and really that's, with all due respect, not the right place to be going for your emotional support.
Karen Gray:
I think you have to have a certain sort of you have to have that empathy, of course you know, but it's it's good that I mean at one time years ago, when I was a young slipper thing, basically people it was more physical abuse and they used to come into the office and they used to say you know he's hit me, but then it was the time when you used to have to say I'm really sorry, but there needs to be blood dripping on the carpet and do you need to wait for him to hit you again? That those that's you know. That's going back a few years ago. But now there's all sorts of the physical, sexual, psychological, emotional abuse that everybody is now aware of. That needs to be that's constant and ongoing. That having somebody like Sarah available can help them with that, because it's quite traumatic to deal with as they're going through the separation and the legal route.
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely, absolutely. And, sarah, how do you come in? How do you approach working with somebody who's been in an abusive relationship, which I guess you know? I just heard Karen talk about the physical side of things. You know, I work a lot with people who've been economically abused and financially abused and the long and short bit is it's all power struggle, isn't it? It's all down to coercive control. It's somebody wanting to have power over another person. So how do you work? Where do you start?
Sarah Steele:
I mean basically, as I say, you know, I offer emotional support and empowerment, um, and divorce from an abusive partner is not just a legal separation but it's also a journey, a journey of reclaiming their self-worth and their autonomy. So the most important thing I do, first of all, is just to listen, you know, to listen to them. Obviously, I offer a free 20 minute call. That might not even happen. We might go into my first session, which is usually an hour and a half, and a lot of that is just listening, because it might be the first time that that person, a man or woman, has felt, seen or heard or validated or believed. And it's just so important to invite them to open up and share in an honest, in an honest way, you know, in a safe and non-judgmental space, um, to express, you know, their fears, their frustrations and their and their concerns and their doubts. Um, because quite a few of them don't actually know they've actually been in an abusive relationship and they don't understand why they're feeling like they're feeling. Yes, divorce is is very traumatic, but you've got another, it's another level when you've been in an abusive relationship. So I help them to recognize and validate their experiences, um, you know, which may have been dismissed or minimized by the abuser or even family members. They might have tried to express concerns if they're fortunate enough to still have connections with their family and the family might have. Um, you express concerns if they're fortunate enough to still have connections with their family and the family might have belittled. That again, you know, and that I've heard quite a bit. So you know, my whole aim is to empower my clients by, as I say, building their confidence, reinforcing their ability to make decisions for themselves.
Sarah Steele:
But there's a lot about education and awareness, because if you've got, you know quite clearly, when you're listening to them and you're taking notes, I always tell them I'm taking notes and you're hearing about their experiences, the behaviors they've been subjected to. They think that's normal. But and it's bringing that, it's bringing that awareness to the client that that's not normal, that's not acceptable. But it's the way that you do it and it has to be very, very carefully and sensitively brought to light, if you like. So it's listening and then also helping education, how I help my clients understand how they became to be in an abusive relationship, because I've had clients who have been businesswomen. Businessmen understand, you know, over 20 years, how they've let that be. You know, I had a client I'm working with a client at the moment, you know, in a business with his wife and he's been given pocket money for the last 20 years. But just thought that was just the way it was. She was dealing with the finances and he accepted that.
Sarah Steele:
So it's also important to understand, help them understand, how abuse has impacted on them. You know how that behavior has impacted on them, and it's not just emotion, psychologically, it's physically. You know, why aren't they well, why can't they sleep, why can't they eat? Why have they lost weight? Why can't they make decisions? You know, and it's how also educate them how the abuser, you know, disempowers, um, the victim and how the abuse erodes self-confidence. And so you know, by working with various tools and strategies, I sort of gently bring awareness to the fact.
Sarah Steele:
I ask them obviously open-ended questions, so they're really telling me again about what their experiences are, which then enables me to sort of reflect that back to them or maybe even say you know what would have, what would you say to a friend if they were telling you this? It's all that type of gently prizing it open, but it has to be. It's such a, it's a gentle, sensitive approach, um, in this niche of coaching. So that would be my, my first, my first appointment. But then, going on from then, you know, you deal with it in priorities, obviously with carriers.
Sarah Steele:
It's safety, you know. Are you safe, are your children safe? That's, that's the first question I often ask clients do you feel safe? You know, are you safe to talk? Um, when you see people in a car or somewhere that you wouldn't ordinarily have those conversations? That's sort of straight away I think, okay, something's, something is really going on here, you know, but every client is different, every single client is different, but, um, it's showing that level of empathy but also being the type of person I'm quite an energetic coach, who you know I want to show them how that they will get through this. It's not their fault, um, the behavior is not acceptable and they deserve more that sounds great.
Tamsin Caine:
It uh. The particular thing that resonated with me is about them being believed. Because that's so important, because people who have been in abusive relationships often aren't believed, because the controlling party is usually charming and everybody loves them, everybody thinks they're amazing because they're not subjecting everybody around them to this behavior. They don't come in with a, you know, like a baddie mask on or or whatever. You know they're that they are the person that everybody thinks is great and and everyone's like no, they couldn't possibly be be behaving like that.
Sarah Steele:
So I think I think that's um whether it's them, you know, is it me, it's their fault, whatever, yeah yeah, and absolutely, absolutely not.
Tamsin Caine:
You know it's. There's just no question is that that's absolutely not the case. Karen, I wonder how you manage. Obviously you've got heaps of experience, you know going back not saying you're old, but you've obviously very experienced in working with these clients and I wondered how you manage communication boundaries to make sure your client feels supported. But it can be overwhelming getting divorced, can't it? There's so much that it feels like you need to do, particularly at the beginning. How do you manage that?
Karen Gray:
I think that you've just hit on when Sarah was saying that they want to be. They need to be reassured that they're believed and I think that's one of the first that they can talk to me. You have to have a certain empathy and they need to trust that I have their best interests at heart and I kind of break things down to try and ascertain. It can take a lot longer with a client who's been abused, so it's more of a trauma-informed approach. So it is a longer process. It's kind of trying to establish what's priority for them once their safety is there and what they want to try and achieve them once their safety is there and what they want to try and achieve, because not everybody can actually face going through that process if they feel that they have that breathing space first. But I think it's kind of getting them to realise that I believe them, they've got the support perhaps from Sarah or from the refuge that they've got that they're engaging with and kind of break down what's their priority.
Karen Gray:
It might be children, it might be to get some money, and a lot of people come in and think because they've been abused and they're told that they don't, they're not going to get one penny, that they don't have any rights whatsoever, and so we kind of try to put things in place to protect their interest in property or to protect their and, and then they can have that breathing space and come back to me when they feel that they're in a better place to be able to deal with it emotionally and physically as well. So it's, I think it's just trying to break things down for them and ensuring that they've got they know what their rights are and that there's no pressure on them to deal with it exactly that minute, unless it's really really urgent, but to take things at their pace as to how they can cope with it.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, I love that because I do think sometimes you get on this hamster wheel and it's almost like you're kind of pushed down a route to carry on and keep going, and keep going, and keep going and actually actually sometimes you just need to to take a breath and to to get yourself in as good an emotional state because you're making some massive decisions when you're going through divorce, aren't you? And to work with with someone like Sarah who, who is going to build you up and give you that confidence, to help you get that resilience back, to get to that place before you start making the legal decisions, is actually pretty important, isn't it? As long as you're safe and have enough money.
Karen Gray:
And they've got their. You get so many people that say, well, he's told me I'm not going to get a penny because the house is in his name and they're married and we can put steps in place to protect their interest and give them that breathing space to be able to face up to it when they're in a better place, shall we say, to deal with it. Um, and sarah can give that emotional support so that it it benefits them and they're a bit stronger for that process.
Sarah Steele:
I think that's a really important point the healing part. You know the healing part because otherwise you're not going to be able to make rational, logical decisions that are in your best interest, as long as it's safe to do so. Just to take the time. There's no rush, and that's really important. The fact that Karen said it's at your pace. You know so, even though they're seeing me or they're seeing Karen, there's no rush, no one's going to force you to do anything. This is your time to just build your strength up, to build your confidence up, and just take a breath, take a breath by your side to guide you.
Karen Gray:
And I think that as time goes on they actually start to remember things that are really quite relevant, that we can deal with both Sarah in her capacity and from a legal perspective, and that's better for them as well. It kind of builds their confidence up more as we go through the process. Yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
I just want to touch on something that happens to a lot of clients that I work with and I'm sure you'll recognize it when I say it. But you've talked about you can take time. There's no need to rush, you can take a break. Quite often, where there's a controlling ex, they're rushing them. There's a controlling ex, there's a, they're rushing them, they're going. You need to do, you need to. You've got to decide by then. You need to do this, by then you need to, and it it's almost like they're keeping. We know the abuse carries on post-separation, you know that, but that's that's carrying on. That controlling behavior is carrying on. How? How can, I guess, both of you help with that? Because that is sometimes one of the biggest issues that I think people find themselves in.
Karen Gray:
I think sometimes that's where Sarah comes in, really, because the fact that they are putting that pressure on them and they're scared to say no often and I think that it is I think the separation, the abuse after separation is, can be worse often, and I think Sarah would be. I would kind of give them that guidance, because if they are having pressure put on them, then I think I would look at the situation to see whether there is the possibility of us perhaps trying to take the control for that person to be able to have some control rather than them being pressured but I do think, sarah, that you would be the person that could help them manage through this process as well, um, and whether there's tips that we can take legally I think that you know, basically, obviously, as long as they're safe just sort of helping them to become aware of why they're doing it and what is the intention behind this behavior.
Sarah Steele:
Is it to um, to to force or rush somebody into an agreement that might not be in their best interests? So, as I say, I'm educating my clients about the abuse. You know this is a form of abuse. They're going to ramp it up, you know, when they feel that you're sort of stepping back, as it were. You know. So I always talk about secret boundaries as well, you know. You know whatever they're doing to you isn't acceptable.
Sarah Steele:
I always talk about secret boundaries as well, you know. You know whatever they're doing to you isn't acceptable, but it's just thinking about what they try. What do they want me to do? They're obviously trying to make me do something that I'm not going to want to do, but I need to take time for me, you know. I need to to realize that. You know I can take a breath, I can take a pause and I don't have to give them a response or do something straight away. And again, that comes from building their confidence, building their self-resilience and also bringing awareness to the fact that you know this is something that they do.
Sarah Steele:
This is what an abuser does. This is part of the behaviour and it is a tactic. And it is a tactic to manipulate and force you into doing something that is not in your best interests. So, yes, and it can be, they might get rageful. Be, they might get rageful, they might get rageful, but you, it's all about putting boundaries in place. Um, you know, possibly, um, applying, deploying the, the grey rock technique, um, and you know being just literally sort of coming out and saying, um, you know, at the moment, at the moment, I'm not, you know, I can't think about that right now, you know, but, um, but let me just, let me just take a breath and I'll think about it and come back to you so you're not sort of being too in over. You know, explaining why you're not taking immediate action, but just to sort of give yourself a, give yourself a bit of a break oh, I like that.
Tamsin Caine:
That's a great technique. That's excellent. So part of your work is giving people techniques to help them when they're when they're not with you as well, because absolutely that's I. I think I would feel quite tempted to just need to see you every day, because you sound like your support is amazing.
Sarah Steele:
I mean, that's the thing, it's all about empowering someone. So, yes, when you're with me, that's the thing. It's all about empowering someone. So, yes, when you're with me, that's great. But I'm quite an energetic coach and my whole mission is to help them move forward. You know, obviously they have to be able to do that for themselves and part of that is taking responsibility. You know for what they're doing, but obviously in an abusive relationship that is quite tricky.
Sarah Steele:
But it's all about, you know, putting boundaries in place and, as I say, I call them silent boundaries because you're not going to say, well, I'm not doing that, because I'm not doing that anymore, and to make them more rageful, but just acknowledging in your own mind that you know. That is, I know what you're doing, I know why you're doing it and I'm not accepting that behavior. So I'm going to take a moment. You know I'm going to take a breath, I'm going to go for a walk, I'm going to have a cup of tea, I'm going to stroke my dog, but I'm not. It's not biting, it's not. It's not reacting, it's responding. You know it's not reacting to the baiting that's probably going on, because that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to evoke a reaction. And you know I'm sure you've heard the grey rock technique, but you know all they're trying to do is to get a little bit of um, well, to evoke a reaction, either to make you upset or rageful, so they can engage in in a bit of conflict, you know.
Sarah Steele:
So that's why it's important the education part is so important. You talk about their behaviors, their you know their abusive partners behaviors, um, and we their you know their abusive partner's behaviours, and we sort of, you know, initially form a checklist. And again, it's one of Sarah Davison's amazing tools and she calls it the game changer checklist where you might have a list of all these behaviours so you can put them on your phone. So when you know your partner starts to start behaving in a way that is familiar to you, that you just think, ah, I know what he's doing. It's on that checklist that I've done with Sarah. You know, I know what he's doing, what's he trying to do? He's trying to cause me to be upset, he's trying to cause a row, you know, trying to make me to make a decision. So that's, it's a really, it's a really great tool to use with the clients. It's all about empowering them to know what's going on, because that behaviour is not unique to that person. It is what abusers do.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. There's a pattern, isn't there and a programme of behaviour that you can recognise? And, to an extent, as soon as you've got that awareness of what's coming next, it's it's that, it's that aha moment you know.
Sarah Steele:
So it's that it might be the touch or it might be a look you know ordinarily would have completely derailed you where I work with clients. To you know, um, not to walk away but to recognize it as what it is. And to, you know, think about some, something they're grateful for, which is a really very good antidote for overwhelm or just gets them to think of something else. So they're not, you know, ultimately triggered and start going into a spiral of anxiety yeah, oh, it sounds wonderful.
Tamsin Caine:
I'm sure lots of people could benefit from from your help, and people in normal life as well. But I know you mentioned earlier, karen, in your introduction that you work with two refuges. Could you tell us a little bit more about the work that you do with them and what inspired you to get involved with their work?
Karen Gray:
They women's refuges. One is um, based in Hitchfield. One's a local one to the office where I work, um, and I've always wanted to see if there was anything that I could do to help victims of abuse, um, so I approached them various ones actually and said that I would like to offer um sessions once a month, or once every three months. I do the one, uh, to give legal advice to women service users who are perhaps in safe accommodation, and even to service users that come in that use the outreach services that they provide. So they we do a clinic and they're booked in to come and to see me so that they have some legal advice as to what their options are, what their rights are, and sometimes just to have a good cry that they're actually taking. That's a big step for somebody to take to actually think I'm actually going to sort things out so that I can move forward properly. It's a huge step for them to take and I just feel that it's really difficult for victims of domestic or survivors of domestic abuse should I say to to access legal advice, to be able to do that and the legal aid.
Karen Gray:
I know legal aid is available, um, but it's not always easy to get it and it's horrendous.
Karen Gray:
So I just feel that it's inspiring to be able to help those, the women that work there.
Karen Gray:
They do an amazing job and do those and give those drop-in clinics so that they can have advice whether it's about forced separation, children, finances and they've got some idea that they can start to create that path moving forward for themselves.
Karen Gray:
I've also we do training workshops with the women, the staff there, so that they have they know the red flags when somebody comes in, when they're doing their assessments and everything that they can say you need to get this sorted. We can put you in touch with somebody who can help you, whether it's just making a will, whether it's just protecting their interest in the property and also with regards to child arrangements, which feeds in the finances, so that it helps them to give the service users the best that they can, and they also get in touch with me should they need to in that time if something urgent comes in, so that we can I can have a chat with them and give them advice on their rights and what applications, if any, or whether we need to make any urgent applications to the court to protect them well, are there common questions that you get asked at the clinics that you have?
Karen Gray:
do I? They don't want to go to court. Obviously, that's the one thing they don't really want to do, um, and it takes a lot because a lot of them that don't want to go are actually the ones that need to go um, and that they could, you know, to get things done properly. It's often about child, about children, um, and what rights have they got um the the other part, the abuser, effectively? Um, I've had it's really weird to say that, because the last few that I've done, I've had a lot of couples come with regards to just having a house that they've bought jointly but haven't protected and they've had paid significant deposits um, and now they're going to lose them because they haven't had any protection for that many, because they're unmarried um, there's been quite a few of those which I've noticed lately which this has been a bit curious, but it's mainly regarding the children, um and the money, because that's the first thing they do, isn't it? Cut all their financial resources off?
Tamsin Caine:
if they had any in the first place. But, yes, do you see a wide range of different people in the refuges? Because I guess there's this, there's this image that this is, this doesn't happen to the wealthy, it doesn't happen to people who've got money, but actually that is not the case at all, is it? And? And a refuge is somewhere that is your safe, is the place that's been kind of planned out to be the safe escape route if you, if your safety is in in danger. I just want to kind of um lay to rest some urban myths, because we don't. We want people out there to know it's, you know it's, it's anybody. This is not. It does not discriminate.
Karen Gray:
I think as well, it's because you get such a lot.
Karen Gray:
It can be anybody, absolutely anybody, and I think that nobody can say that they could never be in that position.
Karen Gray:
But I think what you have to appreciate is that they have refuges, they have homes where they take people in to protect them, but they also have a wide range of outreach services that the public can use and they can help you and support you remain in your home, provided it's safe for them to do so and they can access the support that they give at that at those refuges.
Karen Gray:
And so I think that's why you get such a and such a wide range of people that are going through this, and I work with one woman, um Chad, who, who actually specializes in helping over 50s. Well, they've had careers, you know, and they're in really good positions and she supports them. So I think it's because they are reaching out and able to reach out to so many people, but they don't realise that they can access that support and they can give them advice on housing budgeting, even counselling for children, which you can access quicker, actually, than if you went through the GP and the sources that they can give. It's just, it's amazing the work that they do to support people and you know I feel privileged that I'm able to give them that service, to be able to help them?
Tamsin Caine:
absolutely no, it's incredible. It is an incredible thing that you're, that you're doing and, like you say, it's, it doesn't discriminate by age, by gender, really, by sexuality, by race. You know, unfortunately this touches across the board, although we believe that women are more susceptible, but that may be in the number because women are more likely perhaps to come forward, but that remains to be seen. I think I know you talked earlier, before we came on and started recording, about getting Sarah involved. How are you hoping that she'll be able to help with the refuges as well?
Karen Gray:
Well, she'll be able to give them workshops with strategies and things to put in place. I think that Sarah would be invaluable to them because they wouldn't be service users in particular that are in refuge, wouldn't be able to access it, and it's something that I know that the Pathway Project are keen to, you know to work out with her, sarah. So I think that she would help a lot of them. They're very, very emotional, some of them because they've literally been turned upside down and I think it would be really good that she would be able to give them a good emotional support and then we can collaborate and give them some legal advice as well, so they benefit and it's a holistic approach. Sorry, my teeth got in a tumble then.
Sarah Steele:
I do that all the time. I think it's well tamped in because part of my training on the master practitioner was Sarah Davison. We had the privilege of sitting in on the Freedom Programme and listening to that for 10 weeks and obviously offering support and coaching on that. So I've got a good idea of what they cover in those programmes. But I think to take it a bit further, um would be, would be ideal. So, yes, to sort of formulate some type of workshop, to sort of um moving on to sort of enhance that would would be lovely, um, so I'm looking forward to having that collaboration with, with Karen and the team at Pathway.
Tamsin Caine:
That sounds incredible. Just um, just for those listening who don't know what, can you tell us a bit more about the Freedom Programme? Just thinking in case anybody's listening and hasn't heard of it.
Sarah Steele:
It's a while ago where I sort of probably about a year ago now, but it's the programme that they offer in the refuge and it covers 10 weeks. It's a 10-week course and it covers various things. I can't remember much, but I remember the King of the Castle. It talks about the behaviors, basically, and you have um, I think it's a council that was sitting there who just talked through um the different behaviors and obviously they invite the women to comment, should they wish to.
Sarah Steele:
Um, and I followed the program for 10 weeks. So initially, you know, the women we work with the same the same women weren't saying very much. Then, really, sort of by week by week, by week three, week four, they became a little bit more sort of um conversational about it, but it just sort of spoke about behaviors, covered children, it covered all types of things, um, but it just again was bringing them to the awareness of the fact of different behaviors that an abusive personality displays and also the impact it has on them. So that's what I would like to build on. But, uh, had you given me the heads up, I could have got my book out and told you a bit more about it there's a follow-on from it as well.
Karen Gray:
There's a follow-on. I I recommend that my clients to to access the freedom program because and they always say they just don't want to talk about things then but I think every person that has gone and completed it has come back and said it's been invaluable and it was such a comfort to the education that it gave them and and the believing them as well.
Sarah Steele:
Um, it was amazing it's about the education part. It's about you know, help them understand why they feel like they do, you know, and the impact that you know being in an abusive relationship has on you and, as I say, it's emotional, psychological and physical, um, and just that sort of encouragement that you will get through it. It's not your fault and it's not acceptable and you don't have to accept abuse on any level and it just keep reiterating. Reiterating that because quite a few of them, as I said, been made to feel they were at fault, it was their fault. It's the blame shifting that really sort of gets to people as well yeah, absolutely no, it sounds.
Tamsin Caine:
It sounds an incredibly useful program and it's funny that you say that people often don't don't want to when you first offer it. And I wonder if there's a. There's a point at which you kind of get get a little bit down the line and you think, ok, I'm ready. Now. It's such a huge thing to have to leave that relationship that I think you know and you both mentioned this earlier that that taking time to breathe and taking time to just just step back and go for a walk and have a cup of tea and and and sort of feel safe, you know, just that is is an incredible achievement, for, for anybody you know it's uh, it really is quite something. Um, we're coming to the end of our time together. I told you this ago quick, is there anything? Um, you've got to add karen. I'll start with you before we, before we finish up um, I don't think so.
Karen Gray:
I just think that, um, if any listeners can support any of the local women's refuges in any little way, um, it's invaluable to them, especially coming up to Christmas, then gifts for um children for Christmas, anything like that, because often if people have to go into refuge accommodation, they don't have a choice. They are literally in the clothes that they're standing in and they have nothing. Toiletries are invaluable because they give them toiletry packages on arrival so they've got their own stuff to have. Anything like that would be amazing'm sure brilliant.
Tamsin Caine:
Thank you for that. That's it. That's really good advice when I was hearing yesterday from Sam Billingham about the buddy bags as well for children, which which again is it's a really incredible thing to do. So, if anybody can help, that would be absolutely amazing. If you need the services, then please make sure you get in touch with them safely or get a friend or colleague at work. Anybody that you can contact. Contact them safely. And, sarah, anything that you'd like to add before we finish up?
Sarah Steele:
I think it's just keep campaigning, keep raising awareness of domestic abuse on social media platforms, especially LinkedIn. I think there's been a lot on that recently. I think it's amazing that Queen Camilla did that television programme last week. I think her speaking out is going to really make people think and that's what we need to do. You know, abuse can happen anywhere and it goes on behind closed doors yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
we often don't know, do we. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me. It's been absolutely wonderful to talk to you both, um, and keep up the great work and I look forward to uh, to hearing more as you uh, as you move forward. But thank you to hearing more as you move forward. But thank you, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
Tamsin Caine:
If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil Partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care