Susan Bright, CEO of the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse (EIDA) joins Tamsin to explore the crucial intersection of domestic abuse and the workplace. Gain valuable insights as Susan discusses her mission to guide and educate employers on this sensitive issue.
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Susan Bright
CEO, Employers’ Initiative on Domestic Abuse (“EIDA”)
Susan Bright joined EIDA as CEO in 2022. EIDA is a charity with a member network of over 1,700 employers across the UK that are committed to providing effective support for their employees impacted by domestic abuse. Previously Susan was a partner at global law firm, Hogan Lovells. She held various senior leadership positions, including as a member of the firm’s global executive and UK Managing Partner. Susan has been committed to tackling domestic abuse for many years and led the firm’s introduction of its domestic abuse policy. Hogan Lovells became one of EIDA’s early Beacon members. Susan is also Chair of 50:50, a charity which helps women to progress in politics and is a Non-Executive Director of MindForward Alliance, a network of businesses working together to support and create positive mental health for their people.
Support services for individuals watching /listening: https://www.eida.org.uk/resources/directory-support-services
Bright Sky app from app store
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis. So we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away. So if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening.
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast.
Tamsin Caine:
I'm really pleased to be joined today by Susan Bright. Now, she's going to introduce herself properly in just a second, but she is the CEO of I don't know what you call it EIDA, eida or I should be just using the initials, so I'm going to let you tell me in a minute, but they are the Employer Initiative for Domestic Abuse and it's such a brilliant organization. They had a conference last week which I'm hearing rave reviews about from everybody who attended and, um, crazily, I know lots of people who who attended, which is great. So welcome, susan. Thank you so much for joining me today. I think this is a massively important subject and I'm really looking forward to speaking to you. Can you give us a bit of information about what you do and perhaps a bit about how you got involved as well?
Susan Bright:
Brilliant. Thanks, Tamsin. Very much for inviting me. It's great to get the feedback about the conference as well. Quite an undertaking.
Susan Bright:
Yes, so I'm Susan Bright, the ceo of the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse. We say ida, but some people say ada and other people use our initials, and probably we really ought to, um, get some consistency there, but, um, that's, that's a bit of a struggle, so, uh so EIDA is a charity. We've been around since 2017 and we do what it says on the tin. We're here to help employers to understand what domestic abuse is and then to help their employees who are impacted by it, and we were set up by Elizabeth Filkin, who saw the amazing work that was happening across the sector in terms of supporting people, but recognised that there wasn't anything there for business or for anyone who employs people. And work for those who go to work and lots of people in this country do, of course can be for people an escape from their domestic situation. It can be, for people, a safe space, and it can be a place with the right culture where you can come forward and seek support. But the issue is helping employers to understand what domestic abuse is. They do have a responsibility for their people and being able to signpost people to the support that they need. And if you can harness every employer across the country to do that, think of the power of it. So that's the concept. So it's very simple.
Susan Bright:
We only do four things. In fact, we only have four employees, soon to be joined by a fifth, so we're a tiny organisation but we really punch above our weight because we partner with lots of other people. So we do four things. The first is to raise awareness of domestic abuse amongst employers. So really helping employers to understand what domestic abuse is. So that's the first thing. The second thing, I'll come back to all of those what domestic abuse is. So that's the first thing. The second thing I'll come back to all of those we can unpack it a bit, but the second thing is to give employers the tools that they need in order to support their people impacted by domestic abuse. So, for example, we have a detailed we call it a handbook, which takes employers through understanding what domestic abuse is, what their legal responsibilities are, and then how to a real how to introduce an effective domestic abuse policy. So we can talk more about that. And we also have a template policy so people can take the policy and they can top and tail it. Lots of guidance. So that's the tools, including our events that people can come to.
Susan Bright:
And then the third thing and actually I think the thing that employers like the most is getting employers together to share their experience of domestic abuse and and particular challenges. So we might connect employers who are in a particular industry sector, for example, or bring the employers together around a particular topic. So we have a group of what we call our beacon members, who actually fund our activity and we regularly meet with them and tackle some really quite tricky issues. So during the course of the last 12 months we've looked at international policies for international businesses, for example. We've looked at language that people might use and we've also looked at international policies for international businesses, for example, we've looked at language that people might use and we've also looked at what do you do when you find you've got a perpetrator of domestic abuse in your business, and you can imagine that's a really complicated issue, so really tricky. So you bring those, those, those groups, together and then the final thing we do is to collaborate with anybody and everybody, but particularly with government, to help progress the government's policy laws on domestic abuse in this country.
Susan Bright:
We collaborate with the domestic abuse sector, so we don't provide training, for example. So you know, we connect employers with people who provide really excellent training. We connect employers with people who provide really excellent training. We connect employers with people who provide other services that could support individuals. We also collaborate with academics because we're really keen to progress our understanding about what works and what doesn't work. So that's the fourth thing that we do, and we now have around nearly 1,800 employers across the UK who belong to us, which is a hell of a lot. That's huge.
Susan Bright:
Which is absolutely huge, and collectively, we only can do an estimate, really, tamsin, because we ask people, how many employees do you have? People, how many employees do you have? Um, but we we've tended to say, we've we, that those employers collectively employ about 25 of the uk workforce. It's probably more than that now, but I would say probably 30, but that that's an estimate, and some of them will be doing lots, some of them will be early in their journey, uh, and it really is a business issue though, and we can talk a little bit more about that, but that's who we are and what we do.
Susan Bright:
We have, right at the heart of everything that we do, really importantly, is the experience of people who have had been impacted by domestic abuse. So, really importantly, all our work is informed by the experience of people who have suffered with domestic abuse, and we've got 13,. We call them ambassadors, so they're individuals who volunteer with us and they have their, our materials, our resources to make sure that they're really authentic. Whilst I can talk about facts and figures that one in four women experience domestic abuse, one in six, seven men experience domestic abuse, and we can talk about the cost to the economy, we can talk about the cost of business, which is 17 billion pounds a year in England alone. It's massive. But actually the storytelling times in really matters because I think that's the piece that brings this alive and helps to open people's eyes to what is all around us but we're not seeing.
Tamsin Caine:
I completely agree and my awareness has been brought around by the work that I do. But I would absolutely hold my hands up and say not only did I not really fully understand the extent that domestic abuse impacts individuals, never mind employers, et cetera but really I don't think I really knew what it was um and I naively and I I've said this during this series many times because I think it's important that that that people understand where I am and where I was when I started working with debauching um individuals and couples, I had very clearly said to the lovely Karen Kipping um, who's a fabulous divorce coach who works in this area I probably won't um have anybody who needs your help, because I don't imagine that I'm likely to work with people who um have been in abusive relationships, and that was absolute nonsense. Probably 80 plus and I've said 75 before, but I actually think it's more than that. I think probably 80 plus percent of the people that I newly work with who are going through divorce are leaving abusive relationships, and so it impacts me on a daily basis just because I'm speaking to people and and so it's become a passion of mine to to help people, but also to to hopefully help governments change and so on as well. So, um, it's massively important and it struck me when I heard about your initiative that actually that's not.
Tamsin Caine:
Obviously, 30 percent of of people employed hopefully have employers who are already active in this space, but I suspect there's there's numerous who aren't aware that this is a thing. I've written a domestic abuse policy for our business, but it's a very small business. I guess the thing that I wanted to ask you is is it little businesses, everything up to the biggest businesses in the country, or are you finding that you're largely engaging with the bigger businesses at the moment and it's almost going to be a funnel working down to the smaller ones as you move along? Or is it just as soon as people find out about you there? Yeah, they're kind of coming up to you and saying let's get us on there.
Susan Bright:
It's a mix actually. So our membership currently, you know, is all sorts, from the biggest organisations, you know, like Google's and Amazon's and the Home Office and BP and people, vodafone, down to really small businesses. You know, recently we had a primary school sign up, for example. Hello magazine has just signed up, for example. So it's, it's, it's anyone and everyone, but, you know, in terms of really having an impact, clearly, if we're able to work with bigger employers who have a bigger workforce, then we're reaching more people more quickly. But it is very much our strategy. I mean, our vision is to have every UK employer taking action on domestic abuse, and our materials are prepared deliberately for big organisations and for SMEs, small and medium sized enterprises, and also for, you know, for the charity sector, for government departments, so it's not just corporate business, if you see what I mean. So our materials could be used by, you know, small businesses too. So in our handbook we have a section in quite a long section that goes through how do you if you're a big business, and then we have a separate section, which is a shorter version, for small businesses and I've written guides for really, really simple. These are the five things you need to do or whatever. So it really is and can be for everybody.
Susan Bright:
But I think the awareness, what you were saying about not realizing I was saying saying we all have assumptions about domestic abuse and before I joined EIDA a couple of years ago, I was the managing partner. I had been the managing partner at Hogan Ubbles, which is a big, big law firm, global law firm, and in that role I had led the introduction of the firm's domestic abuse policy a few years ago. And that's where I met EIDA, because they helped us to do that. And you know, I had preconceptions about domestic abuse. I assumed it was, you know, more physical violence between a couple. But it's so much broader than that. I mean the legal definition in the now Domestic Abuse Act.
Susan Bright:
It's about abuse between people who are connected, who are both 16 years or older, and so that includes not only those, you know, partner type relationships, whether you're married or not married, same sex, whatever, but it also includes, you know, teenage relationships. So, for example, you know, or relationships between children and parents, as long as the child is over 16, or people you know we forget, older people as well, you know. So there can be abuse between siblings In some communities. Um, I have learned that, um, you know, mother-in-law, daughter-in-law abuse is is a real issue. So it's, it's any family relationship, whether whether you're living to together in the same household, or or it now extends also to you know, where people have, have left a relationship and are separate, so you have have, you know, that, post-separation abuse that can carry on for years.
Susan Bright:
So, first of all, it affects all sorts of different relationships and then, secondly, it's the nature of abuse, because a lot of people have this vision, a lot of employers have this vision that it's physical violence, and sometimes it is, but at the heart of it, as you know, and sometimes it is, but at the heart of it, as you know, it's about control, and we now have a criminal offence of coercive and controlling behaviour, which came in in 2015. But that's really at the centre of it and abuse can. Then it can be around isolating people from their family and friends. It can be about economic abuse. I mean some of the stories. Honestly, it's amazing that I've heard about how people are controlled and not able to spend any money or have the things that money can buy, and it's using children to abuse, pets to abuse. I mean it's everything and really so many people have said to me that the the psychological, the controlling behavior is is so damaging, and sometimes more damaging than the the physical, physical abuse which may or may not be present, and so it's. So it's two things. It's it's a much wider set of relationships, I think, than we, we naturally think, and it's a much broader set of behaviours, but it's hard to control.
Susan Bright:
So when we brought in, I had the same experience when we brought in the domestic abuse policy at Hogan Novels, you know, some people did say but why are we doing this? Nobody, you know, nobody who works in a place like this is going to have experienced domestic abuse. And of course, what we found, sadly, when we brought in our policy was, first of all, people would come forward to say they did, come forward to say we are so pleased you're talking about this because it's so stigmatized, there's so much of a sense of shame. The fact that the organization's talking about this and is offering to help is massive. And then we did have people coming forward to seek the support that our policy offered. So that really taught me, you know, it really opened my eyes up and also showed me the value that an organisation, employer can have if it has the right culture so people feel able to come forward. And even if they don't feel able to come forward, if you're providing that through your business, you're providing awareness and raising awareness amongst your employees somebody might at least take the information and go themselves to seek external expert support and they may also be able to recognise.
Susan Bright:
You know the signs in family and friends and that sort of thing, but doing this job. You know when people, when friends and that sort of thing, but doing this job. You know when people, when I used to be a lawyer, um, you know people used to say, well, what do you do? And I say I'm a lawyer, and I glaze over. And now I say now I say what I'm doing, I I almost every time that I'm a social event or meeting people in a sort of slightly larger group and I tell people what I do, almost every time somebody will come up to me quietly at some point and say can I just share with you what happened to me? It's everywhere, tamsin, it's everywhere. And so you know I'm absolutely passionate about helping businesses to do something about it and also it's important for businesses to know that they do have a legal responsibility to do something about it. So we've got this Domestic Abuse Act, which came in in 2021, and there's some statutory guidance.
Susan Bright:
So I'm being a lawyer now.
Susan Bright:
Now there's some statutory guidance that sits alongside it, which has a little section about employees and makes it clear that there are obviously health and safety obligations on employers and employers also have a common law duty of care to their employees. And it explicitly says and this extends to supporting employees who are impacted by domestic abuse, and this extends to supporting employees who are impacted by domestic abuse. And that guidance recommends that businesses have policies and processes to support people. And one thing I think is really, really important is it's not about a business becoming an expert in domestic abuse. That's not what we're about and that would be inappropriate, but what it is about is helping. We talk not what we're about, and that would be inappropriate, but what it is about is helping. We talk about a three-hour framework. So it's about helping a business and their employees to do three things One is to recognise the first hour, recognise the signs of domestic abuse. The second is to respond appropriately. And the third is to refer to the expert support that's available.
Susan Bright:
So recognising the signs can be really quite hard, because victims and survivors of domestic abuse will often hide that, they may not be ready to share, may not even realise that they are experiencing domestic abuse. I expect you've come across that numerous times. Yeah, yeah, yes. So one of the things that quite helps with that is there's, um, there's a wheel, uh called the Duluth wheel. That was created quite a long time ago, comes in different, different, um, different uh types, but it basically puts it's, it's a picture which puts parent control at the middle and then has different segments of types of abuse, and I think that can be a really helpful tool for people to look at. And I've had so people say to me, looking at, I can suddenly see, yeah, I'm experiencing that behavior and that behavior and that behavior and it sort of opens their eyes to it. So recognizing the signs not always easy, but usually it's changes in behavior. So if somebody used to come to lots of events after work, but suddenly they're going home, their attendance is different, they're constantly being interrupted at work with telephone calls or whatever they're anxious to get home on time that sort of thing can be a sign.
Susan Bright:
And then how you respond is really important because, as I'm sure you know, it is incredibly difficult for somebody to come forward and seek support and help or even to accept that that's what they're going through, and so the response is key and believing people is really important, because it's disastrous to say something like, but are you really sure? Or but he seems so charming, or she seems so lovely, etc. Or why don't you just leave, is a common response, which is a very difficult thing for people to do. So responding appropriately and then referring to expert support. So if an employer has brought in support within the business, referring somebody to the support available in the business, so bigger businesses may have counselling services and other support that might be helpful, and then, of course, also the business having the knowledge about the external support that's available, the national helplines and so on, support that's available, the national helplines, and so on.
Susan Bright:
There's a fantastic um app called bright sky which anyone can download from the web's web. You know the web store, whatever it's called, the app store, sorry and um or you can access it online and the bright sky app has on it uh, information about what domestic abuse is. You can do a little, you know, quiz. It's got a lot of information to support people impacted by domestic abuse, and also it has a fantastic directory which you can put in your postcode of where you are and it will then bring up the services that are local, really, really useful, I find if somebody is in a dangerous situation, they may not wish to, just as a safeguarding issue, may not be able to download it onto their phone, but maybe a friend can.
Tamsin Caine:
yeah, yeah absolutely, that's brilliant. I didn't know about that. We'll um. We'll pop a note in the show notes for for bright, bright sky right, good, bright sky.
Susan Bright:
It's um a collaboration between hestia, which is a domestic abuse charity, and the Vodafone Foundation, who funded it, and it's available here in the UK lots of different languages as well, which is super useful and international employers. It is also available now in some other countries as well, so very useful.
Tamsin Caine:
That's fantastic what a brilliant app because it is finding sometimes finding the local domestic abuse services is tricky if they're not kind of out there and making a lot of noise. I mean that's brilliant. I like the three R's. That's nice and simple. People can kind of get their heads around that. People can kind of get their heads around that is that. So if and as you say, lots of people have no idea that they have been experiencing domestic abuse.
Tamsin Caine:
We had a conversation with this about with somebody on linkedin actually this morning, and somebody had said that it's important to understand that people don't always recognize it because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's important to understand that people don't always recognize it because it feels normal to them, yeah, and that because it's quite often because it's about controlling behavior and the people that are the perpetrators are quite often quite devious and it it slowly encroaches on the relationship, it slowly creeps up.
Tamsin Caine:
It's tiny changes in behavior over a sustained period of time.
Tamsin Caine:
If somebody went from being prince charming to punching you in the face, it's quite clear but this isn't always that this is quite often just small, tiny changes over a very long period of time where this is normal to you and and this is how you've come to live and actually I think the reason that I deal with lots of people who are suddenly realizing that they're leaving an abusive relationship is because it's the having left that suddenly makes it clear that what was happening actually wasn't what ought to be normal, even though it was their normal.
Tamsin Caine:
I hope that makes some sort of sense. But if, if somebody is in this in a position where they've they've realised that things haven't been great for them and that they have realised that they've been in an abusive relationship, whether they're still in it or whether they have managed successfully to leave it and are in a post-separation situation, if they don't know, if their employer's got a domestic abuse policy, who are they going to? Who should they approach where? Where would it be normal to find a domestic abuse policy if, if there was one in fact, in them in with the employer?
Susan Bright:
lots of questions there yes, um, so I'll try and pick my way through some of those. So, um, it's it. So we're encouraging every employer to have a policy or written guidance. Um, ideally a policy, but some businesses there are lots of hoops to go through to have an actual formal policy.
Susan Bright:
But something written down is really important and the reason that we recommend that is because people have been in a situation where they are controlled. Having some control is critically important. So you are much more likely to seek help if you know what is going to happen to you and if you are able to control the consequences of coming forward. So having something written down very clearly explains to a person well, this is the business doesn't tolerate domestic abuse. If I come forward, this is the type of support I mean. Obviously it flexes, but this is the type of support that I can expect, etc. Type of support that I can expect, et cetera. And the fact it's written down and available also maybe helps to take away that for some people, that real sense of stigma and shame. So the fact it's being talked about openly within an organisation it's like mental wellbeing. You know, 15 years ago nobody would talk about that in the workplace. But you know, once people start talking about it, it is easier to have those conversations, so having it written down is really important.
Susan Bright:
The last time there was a survey to see how many businesses in the UK had a domestic abuse policy was back in about 2019. And that was carried out by the Vodafone Foundation, and at that point, only about 5% of organisations had something. I want to do another survey now to see, because it would have got a lot better. But even where your business has a domestic abuse policy, you still need it's really important to talk about it and to keep raising awareness, because people won't necessarily know that you have one or to go and look for it. We all know that an organisation will have a sickness policy or a maternity leave policy, because those are things that an employer must have, but at the moment, there is no obligation to have a domestic abuse policy. Maybe that will come someday, but it's certainly best practice.
Susan Bright:
But people don't know. If you don't know, if you don't think about it, don't know about it, and so that's why it's so important for employers regularly to be reminding people that they do have a policy, they do have a response, they are able to support people. That awareness piece is really important, and how a business raises awareness is also important. There's nothing better, frankly, than the old fashioned way of you know having a poster on the back of a toilet door. Frankly, because that's a private space. If you have a nice awareness raising poster with a QR code, or you know information about where to go within the business or outside the business QR code, or you know information about where to go within the business or outside the business, do you know what? That's probably one of the most useful things, because if you have that same information on a you know, next to the coffee point or on your intranet site, it may be harder for you don't necessarily want to stand there and take down the information when your mates are watching you.
Tamsin Caine:
That's interesting. I'm thinking as you're talking about that. We have a shared office space and I think lots of businesses are in this position now. So we have a desk in a beautiful mill building where lots of different businesses are all together, and our toilets are not public, but they're public to their own side of the building. They're not public public but they're public to the their own by the building and they're not even in, never mind being not only for our business, but they're actually not only for the people who are in the shared space. They're actually part of the main buildings. We have to go out in the shared space and and it that's a brilliant idea, but I'm thinking there'll be lots of businesses in our position where they're in shared spaces. Have you got any suggestions as to what they could do?
Susan Bright:
well, I think that's a fantastic opportunity actually to speak to the building owner and and to say look, actually there's some information it would be really great for everybody to be able to access and could we collectively use. Put, put occasionally and you want to do, you want to change things around, obviously times and you don't want anything that sticks stays on all the time for too long.
Susan Bright:
People it, people don't see it anymore, so but, but maybe that's an opportunity to talk to other people in the building about using using that space. But, um, other ways of raising awareness. I mean, you know, if you've got, I mean you can have talks, you can share podcasts. There's also people like to hear things in different ways. Some people will be listening to this, watching this, whatever. But I think in a small business, if what you know just talking about it openly and I mean my business is very small, small we have a domestic abuse policy. Obviously be awful if we didn't. But good to hear. But but good to good to good to talk about it.
Susan Bright:
And in a bigger organization, um, having having people who are in senior positions talking about it from time to time, threading it into you know, their know their communications written, or you know if they're doing a town hall type meeting, talking about these sorts of issues and saying you know, we pride ourselves on being a great place to work. I just want to remind everybody that we do take domestic abuse very seriously. We do take sexual harassment, in the worst case, really seriously. We've got processes around all of this. I really want to encourage people. If you need support, you must come forward and this is how you do it and the person you speak to. If you have senior people doing that, people start to believe that this is something that the organisation really believes in. Other things that we've found useful is some employers talk about you know on their they might have a recruitment website or space or and will actually share that they have policy around domestic abuse and other things that they offer, and the anecdotal feedback from that is really positive. Ie gosh, you know that must be a really good place to work if they have that sort of policy. But, as I was saying, it's because it's not a legal requirement yet to have a domestic abuse policy. It is really important for that continual awareness raising because people look, people come, people go, you get new employees coming in and so making sure that it's really out there. It's also about embedding it into the business, because you are asking about people not necessarily realising that there's a problem.
Susan Bright:
So a domestic abuse response can't depend. It's not a campaign. It needs to be threaded into your workplace response. So the sorts of things that I encourage businesses to think about is well, think about the touch points when somebody might be more vulnerable. So, um, you, you may or may not know that domestic abuse can often start or escalate while someone is on maternity leave, having having a child first time or subsequent child.
Susan Bright:
So how about, you know? Often people come back and they'll have a return to work conversation. There could be a question in there, so it's systematized which is how's everything at home? You know, just putting things into your normal processes is important. When people are promoted, they often get training because they're going to start managing people or more people, and will be trained about various things. Well, as part of that training, helping them to understand you know when, when you're supervising people, what sort of questions might be asked. What sort of things might you want to find out about? Putting something into somebody's annual appraisal, how's everything at home?
Susan Bright:
Because what we everyone finds is that if you proactively ask at different points, it may prompt somebody to feel comfortable to come forward. At different points. It may prompt somebody to feel comfortable to come forward. A really observant manager who says you know, look, I've noticed that you're. You know, I've noticed that you don't seem quite yourself at the moment. Is there anything going on? You know those sorts of questions Because often what can happen uns unsurprisingly is that somebody's work performance will be going down because, as I say to people, if someone's coping with all of this at home, how on earth can they possibly be performing at their best at work? So the risk is that somebody gets into a performance type review downward spiral and finds themselves ultimately out of a job, which just exacerbates the the problems that they're in, whereas if it's picked up and the employer understands what's going on and they can put some support mechanisms in place, which might be a bit more flexibility on when somebody arrives leaves all sorts of things that can make a massive difference.
Tamsin Caine:
Keeping people in employment, I think, is a real win keeping people in employment, I think, is a real, is a real win. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because quite often that's one, as you said, that isolating behavior, the economic abuse is, can be more difficult if they're in a workplace because they are in contact with other people and they're they are able to earn their own money, although, albeit, we know that that's not necessarily ending up with them, but but at least it's a step in the right direction. Would you expect, if you're in, if you're experiencing or have experienced domestic abuse, would you expect that person to be able to speak to a line manager? Or would that be the first thought of call if they didn't know whether there was a specific policy in the business and the awareness kind of hadn't been perhaps as good as it should have been? It would be a line manager you go to first, do you?
Susan Bright:
think it would be a line manager you go to first, do you think? I suspect people probably talk to a friend or a colleague in the business rather than a line manager. I think line managers it's more likely to be the way around where a line manager will spot something.
Tamsin Caine:
Because the line manager has that responsibility.
Susan Bright:
The line manager may spot something and start a good line manager might spot something and start asking questions and wanting to know if somebody needs some support. But I think most people talk to their mates and lots of people have mates at work because we spend so much time there, and so that's why raising awareness more generally is so important. Raising awareness more generally is so important. Um, obviously, hr people in hr need to be sort of really well aware of this and have extra training and guidance, but probably hr is not the first port of call for most people. Um, you know, people will tend to think of hr as, um, you know, sort of doing, you know the grievance processes and all sorts of things like that yeah hr, hr can be incredibly supportive.
Susan Bright:
All I'm saying is that they may not be the first natural port of call for somebody in this situation. So I think it's normally colleagues, um, uh, and then you know, being signposted to to support. The big thing is that people should not take it. This is not about taking the response into into your own hands so that you know, can have been. I've heard stories of people trying to help too much, if you see what I mean, um, and trying to help remove, literally physically help remove people from a challenging situation that can be, that can be quite dangerous, and at the center of all of this must be the safety of the victim, survivor, their children and also colleagues as well. So you know, our advice always is if, if there's, if, if there's a really dangerous situation, ultimately, uh, you may have to call the police, of course, I mean that that ultimately is a big thing, but but again, ideally in in discussion and consultation with the individual,
Tamsin Caine:
absolutely we're coming to the end of our time together.
Tamsin Caine:
I feel like that's absolutely flown um. Before we go, I just want to ask you if you can tell us, if I'm an employer wanting to get things put right that perhaps aren't there at the moment, where do I go? And secondly, if I'm somebody who is employed but struggling with an abusive relationship, what steps can I take?
Susan Bright:
abusive relationship. What steps can I take? So if you're an employer and wanting to put in place support, come and join ida. Membership is free. As I say, we're funded by a small group of employers, but for everyone else it's it's absolutely free and gives access to all of our resources, everything I've talked about today, the guides we've got guides for managers, guides for champions, all sorts of things and the step-by-step way of doing it. So join IDA. We can put into the resources the link for the membership page we will and that gives access to all our resources and all our events. So do that.
Susan Bright:
And then, if you want more help, come and talk to us about what you need to do. If you're an individual who is concerned about your own safety and so forth and you don't know if your employer has a policy, you can go and find out and they might be able to help you. You can go and find out and they might be able to help you. But otherwise there's a national domestic abuse helpline. Get a friend to download Bright Sky that I mentioned earlier and that's just got endless amounts of information and support for you individually or if you're supporting somebody else. So that is what I would do If you're concerned about your safety, please, please, please, act is the most important thing. So go to the police, go to go to your employer, go to a friend yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely, Susan. Thank you so much for your time today. I find that incredibly useful and sure those listening will have done as well, and it was brilliant to have you join us. Thank you for listening or watching or reading. It was great to have you with us.
Tamsin Caine:
If you have found this useful, please, um, give us a five-star review, because that just helps us to widen the net that this podcast catches and hopefully we'll be able to help some more people that way. Many thanks, thank you able to help some more people that way, many thanks. Thank you, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the smart divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic.
Tamsin Caine:
I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.