Our guest is Lucy Wade, the force behind "You Don't Own Me" and host of "Dip In and Out with Lucy." We uncover the often hidden struggle of post-separation abuse. Lucy's insights equip listeners with strategies to confront the ongoing control and manipulation many face during the divorce process, unveiling the harsh reality of financial and legal tactics used by abusers to maintain their grip.
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Lucy Wade
Lucy is the creator of ydom.co.uk and host of the Podcast, DIP in and out with Lucy CIC . She is a Domestic Abuse Consultant, specialising in Post-Separation Abuse. She proudly sits on the Board of Trustees of Trafford Domestic Abuse Services
Lucy has developed the Let’s Talk Series, which helps organisations, including John Lewis Partnership Working Parents Network and Gender Equality Network (GEN) to begin to understand the issues and challenges faced by those experiencing domestic abuse and post-separation abuse. And what organisations can do to support those around them.
She works with various organisations, including The National Trading Standards (NTS) Scams Team as part of their task force to develop their knowledge and understanding of domestic abuse, the language and approach we should all be taking when talking about abuse, and how it impacts all of us directly or indirectly.
She is a guest speaker joining among others, Alzheimer’s Society’s Spotlight Session to open the door to conversations around abuse and helps those who may be searching for answers but don’t know where to start.
Website: https://ydom.co.uk/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lucywade38
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TggcSQj1vaBPzRWzCXXni
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis. So we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away. So if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast.
Tamsin Caine:
I'm very happy to be joined today by lovely Lucy Wade. She is giving me payback podcast because I was very privileged to be a guest on her podcast, so Lucy is the creator and owner of the website You Don't Own Me and the host of the podcast "Dip In and Out with Lucy, which, if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see the lovely picture behind her with her podcast name. She also delivers the Let's Talk series online sessions around domestic abuse and post-separation to help organisations to understand the complexities of abuse and what they can do to support those around them. She's a consultant and a guest speaker, working with various organisations to develop their knowledge and understanding of domestic abuse, the language and approach we should all be taking when talking about abuse and how it impacts us all directly and indirectly, right?
Tamsin Caine:
The next bit I'm going to ask her to explain because I've not got a clue. So it says "dip in and out with Lucy CIC, and then there's another bit is a one-stop shop, helping people find useful resources, support services and access to knowledge shared by professionals." Did I get most of that right, lucy?
Lucy Wade:
You did. I'm very impressed because it's a bit of a mouthful. I don't think that would be a very good tagline ever for me, but it's basically what it says .
Tamsin Caine:
Excellent one-stop shop, yeah, so. So before we get, we get stuck into the meat of the conversation. We're going to talk about post-separation abuse, um, so how did you start to? Um understand about abuse, to want to get involved in this area of work, because it's not the most glamorous and cheerful topic to spend your life talking about that well, 100%. You've said what most people think when I open my mouth and say this is what I do for a living?
Lucy Wade:
um, you're 100% right. Yes, it is, and I think that's probably the reason I wanted to do it.
Lucy Wade:
More than anything is because it's such a a taboo subject, in a way, and and we talk about domestic abuse and we're currently in, you know, domestic violence awareness month, um but actually post-separation abuse is something that just is either overlooked, isn't understood, and it was just an area for me that I felt really needed to be highlighted, and I myself was a service user of my local charity, and then I was a volunteer because I wanted to give back, and then I went one step further and started working for them.
Lucy Wade:
And when I was working for the charity, I was out in the community talking a lot to service users, and what I started to notice was, you know, obviously charities have funding and then funding comes to an end. So if you're having support, that support isn't going to go on forever. That support will last maybe the length of your group facilitation or your one to one sessions. And you know, if you have IDVA support, it will eventually come to an end. And it's what do you do then? And that, for me, was where I felt you don't owe me, as my website could step in. And then, obviously, the podcast, and it was all one big kind of idea in my head and I just needed to kind of get it down and think how am I actually going to achieve?
Lucy Wade:
this and how is this going to work? And it's been. I think it was April 2023. I kind of put the podcast out there and started the website and since then, thankfully, things seem to be going from strength to strength.
Tamsin Caine:
Long, long, long long. May that continue, because it is an indispensable service that you provide and one that's vitally important. And had a similar conversation with Karen Kipping, who came on to talk about being an IDFA and kind of supporting people in court, and we talked about the possibility of private IVA type of scenario, which I think is the way she sort of describes herself. But what you were saying about post-separation abuse and it not being understood, there's definitely a thought out there that once you've left, everything will be all right and all the nastiness comes to an end and it's all flowers and roses and you can get on with your life and it's all beautiful again. Um, and that's not entirely the situation, is it?
Lucy Wade:
no, absolutely not. And I only had this conversation with somebody the other day saying you know, you watch those films, um, where it talks about domestic abuse, and then by the end of it it's all sorted. So in the space of a couple of hours it's all been dealt with and there you go and they, you know, ride off into the sunset. Like you're saying, it's all flat and great, life's great. And post-separation abuse and domestic abuse itself isn't like that. It is that continuation.
Lucy Wade:
And one of the biggest things I talk about in my series, in the sessions I do, is about myth busting and misconceptions and around that idea that when people say, well, why didn't they just leave, you know, well, they've left, now everything should be okay.
Lucy Wade:
But that actually very often I would say 99.9% of the time, if not 100% of the time it is going to ramp up, because the whole point of an abuser, of a perpetrator, is they want to keep control and retain that power and control over you. So once you try to leave the situation or and I'm not, and I always say it's not everybody can leave, it's never an assumption that everybody can leave but if you do leave the situation, then very often it will get worse before it can possibly get better. And that's where I think the support is needed, because that and if children are involved, you know, and you're in for a very long process of family court become involved and you basically are tied to that perpetrator. And it's finding ways of supporting yourself, supporting your mental health, because I call it a marathon, not a sprint.
Tamsin Caine:
Absolutely, absolutely. On the podcast about leaving and about how many times it tends to take victim survivors of domestic abuse to leave the situation. But today we want to focus on what happens afterwards, what sort of things people might need to prepare themselves for. I guess if you're going to leave, if you're preparing to leave, that's hard enough, but you do need to prepare for what's going to happen next. So can you give us some examples of some of the things that you might be up against, even if you do manage to leave?
Lucy Wade:
Absolutely so. In particular, I would say, obviously in terms of where you're going to live, because if the perpetrator is in control of the finances, are you prepared for the fact that you may have to go into accommodation? Are you prepared for the fact that you may have to live with family or friends for a period of time while you start to rebuild your life? You know there's a lot of things around. Even just where you're going to live is a really difficult conversation. Even just where you're going to live is a really difficult conversation.
Lucy Wade:
If then it does get to the point, as I was saying, around either family courts, you know. If the police are involved, if social services are involved you may be seeing your GP you might be concerned that you know there are things going on for you mentally, because very often a perpetrator will convince a victim or survivor that they're mentally unwell. So there's so many organizations and agencies that you could be involved in and with, and I think it is that getting that help and getting that support, because if all those agencies are involved, what you have to prepare yourself for is you are repeating yourself over and over and over again. So I've supported people who will say well, I spoke to this social worker today, but they've now moved teams, so now I've supported people who will say, well, I spoke to this social worker today, but they've now moved teams, so now I've had to repeat everything and go over it all again. Or, if it comes to the police, this person has now moved on to another role, so I've had to repeat it all again.
Lucy Wade:
And this is why I think there's a massive, massive issue with underreporting because, I think most people get to a point where they are so exhausted they're just trying to put one foot in front of the other. They're trying to, if they have children, support their children. If they have a job, they're trying to hold down a job and doing all of this.
Lucy Wade:
I call it spinning 50,000 plates doing all this while trying to live a life and by trying to also keep the perpetrator at a reasonable distance, and none of it's easy. So I would definitely say that's where support is so important, and what many people will say is well, my partner never hit me, therefore it isn't abuse, and this is why, when we call it domestic violence awareness month.
Lucy Wade:
I think it can be so misleading because if we incorporate abuse as well, well, that includes the financial, the psychological, the emotional, the physical. You know there is so many the sexual, there's so many other areas to include, and I think that's why a lot of people won't seek support, because they think it doesn't impact them. But what I would always say is there is no support service out there that is going to turn you away. If you phone up and say I think I'm experiencing this, but I'm not sure, then they will go through that process with you and there's nothing to fear and there's nothing to be ashamed of because they're trained to help you?
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's a really important point to make that it's not your fault. You've not asked for this. This is something that somebody else is doing to you, and I know that we feel that there's massive underreporting across the board. But it certainly feels like it's possible that the underreporting is even more extreme with men than with women, because I think men are even more unwilling to open up about it because it feels like something that shouldn't be happening I mean, it shouldn't be happening to anybody but that they feel like they can't open up about it and go and seek help from these services. So I think it's massively important what you've said about people need to seek help.
Tamsin Caine:
Just want to come back to something that you said about housing, just because you are beautifully careful about the words that you choose, but just want to clarify something for the listeners who are not au fait and used to the language around housing. So when you talk about accommodation, could you just explain what you mean by that in terms that perhaps listeners who aren't aware of what that means could understand Absolutely. So, as I said, before.
Lucy Wade:
You may not be in a position where you can afford to go and rent somewhere yourself. You may not be in a position to stay with family or friends. It may be that you've been so isolated that you have no support network in terms of family and friends and it's going to take time, maybe if you wanted to rebuild those relationships. So this is where, if you do speak to your local support services, that's where they can look at what's called accommodation. So that would be refuge. It's always scary when people use the word refuge because it just makes it sound so dark and scary. And actually I've been in refuge uh, in Trafford myself and they're not at all. They're incredibly amazing places that make people feel so safe. Um, they're there. You know.
Lucy Wade:
You're probably safer there than anywhere else you know, and that's where you're made to feel like it's your home. It's, you know, and you can have your own room. And if you have children, you know, and that's where you're made to feel like it's your home. It's, you know, and you can have your own room. And if you have children, you know it can accommodate children. There are male refuges as well, especially again in trafford.
Lucy Wade:
At the moment we've you know, that's recently opened I think last year, um and it's it's starting to become more understood that it isn't a scary place, accommodation or refuge. It's where you're going to get the support that you need and also the time, because at that point you're in crisis, you know your whole life has unraveled and you know you're blaming yourself, you're panicking and worrying about everything. So if you're in accommodation, you have that support there for you. So, and then over time, it can be that it ends up in tier housing. Then over time, it can be that it ends up in tier housing. So that means that eventually you may end up in in housing, as in a house, rather than it being a room within accommodation. So it just takes time, but it gives people that time to gather their thoughts and and actually take a breath for a minute .
Tamsin Caine:
That that makes it. That makes a lot of sense. And we talk about all of the things that you've got going on post separation. You know you've left the family home. You've probably taken the children with you, if if there are children not necessarily, but you probably have and certainly for clients I work with the ones that are not experiencing domestic abuse. It's still a full-time job getting divorced, but getting divorced with domestic abuse in the background it's not really even in the background, as it's in the foreground and every ground there is. But even with that going, with that going on on top, that whole process of getting divorced is is kind of even bigger, isn't it? Can you give us some examples of of some ways in which the abuse continues through and almost because of the divorce process?
Lucy Wade:
Yeah, absolutely, and again, this is kind of like the meatiest bit for me now, getting into the impact that it has. Post-separation abuse and people like you just said about divorce in itself is very rarely straightforward, but add domestic abuse into that mix and it complicates things a lot. It could be, for example, things like you may have an arrangement in terms of child maintenance. So if you do have children or maybe something there, what the perpetrator will do will use that as a weapon either not pay the amount of money that they've been told by CMS to pay they won't pay it in on time They'll pay a different amount. It's all little things that coercive control to keep you on edge, and for a lot of people, that's what they're relying on to maybe pay a bill or to buy food, and it's the way of if they've been controlled in the relationship, either what they wear, what they eat. This is a continuation of that. So, wear what they eat. This is a continuation of that.
Lucy Wade:
So, and even speaking to CMS, they give um, the paying parent five days, so what you'll find is they may leave it till the very last day before they can be reported, and so it's just to add that anxiety, that stress constantly and they may. They may scare the victim or survivor into saying don't go to children. You know child maintenance services, I can't afford that guilt them into not going so that then they have a private arrangement. But that means that the victim survivor may be losing out on vital funds that they need, that they're entitled to and things like the family court. I mean, I think we could do an entire episode or two or three on that, but in terms of tying things, up there into mediation forcing mediation to the point where the victim or survivor is so intimidated by that person.
Lucy Wade:
They don't want to be in the same room with them, but they're being forced into that, and that, for a perpetrator, is their idea of heaven. They can turn on the charm. They know how to behave in front of people and they also know how they're going to behave behind closed doors. They also know how they're going to behave behind closed doors. So it's that giving them constantly, that platform, that theatre that they love to look like they're the victim.
Lucy Wade:
They're the one that's, you know, hard done to. There's so many ways. You know, I've had cases where people have been trying to go to say the GP for support and things, and one person in particular was talking about the fact that they had disabilities but their partner was their carer.
Lucy Wade:
So they can be involved because they've given them permission to speak to their GP for them.
Lucy Wade:
There's so many ways that they can keep that. That wheedling into your life and removing them is not straightforward and I think sometimes that's why I try and be honest. I never want to scare anyone and I think it's the best thing to do.
Lucy Wade:
It's like anything, isn't it Forewarned is forearmed and prepared, and preparing yourself for what's to come.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. I've heard a fair bit recently about something that I've legal abuse, where essentially the perpetrator is using the divorce to rack up enormous legal bills in their name to reduce the value of the marital pot and also to force the victim survivor tip to almost have to keep up or or not doing things and not, um, not responding to things, so that you have to send more letters, you have to do more work to get to the information, which again ramps up the costs. Have you got any examples of anything like that happening?
Lucy Wade:
I think off the top of my head there have been cases where that is 100% true, because what perpetrators will do, they will know that. Say, for example, they have a barrister over solicitor, a barrister is going to cost more than a solicitor is going to cost. So it can be that intimidation then for the victim survivor who may have nothing, to then say, well, how am I going to afford this? If they can use a McKenzie friend, great. But at the same time, does a McKenzie friend have the experience, the knowledge, that they're going to need to battle it out with a barrister or a solicitor, you know, sending letters, like you say, over very minuscule things just to keep that going. So it costs. So then they have to respond to them there If they do have legal representation and they're having to respond.
Lucy Wade:
And something that came in recently that I noticed in a few different cases were around actually still living in the family home. You know that doesn't get discussed enough. So whilst the divorce is in process, the two people because neither can leave necessarily, or perpetrator just doesn't want to leave, and they're then having to live under the same roof whilst the whole process is going on, which is continuing the abuse.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. It's really terrifying, isn't it the way that these sorts of things continue. What is the impact on victims and survivors of separation abuse? What impact can it have? I guess firstly during the divorce process, because that's where we're kind of talking about at the minute.
Lucy Wade:
I think you know, if say, for example, as I mentioned before, if the victim or survivor had been seeking support through the GP, very often a GP might offer antidepressants, something like that. This is something then that perpetrators will use as part of the divorce against you know, in terms of character assassination. Almost Well, they take antidepressants. There must be something wrong with them. Actually, that person is trying to manage their mental health and should be applauded for trying to do something about it, and I think that's the impact of it, and not just on the individual themselves, but if children are involved very often and again I sometimes get funny looks for saying this, but unfortunately.
Lucy Wade:
it's true, children will love both parents, regardless of whether one is the perpetrator and one is the victim, and and very often the child will blame themselves you know, I've again I've been lucky to work with children and young people as well and of whether one is the perpetrator and one is the victim, and very often the child will blame themselves. You know, I've been lucky to work with children and young people as well. And they will say you know, it's my fault.
Lucy Wade:
It's my fault, I didn't behave.
Lucy Wade:
I wasn't good enough. That's why this has all happened. And the sad thing for them is it's normal to them, that's normal life. So you're trying to have to unpick that and say actually that behavior wasn't acceptable. You know, and do it in a very gentle way that they understand that it isn't their fault.
Lucy Wade:
And one thing I often use with the work I do now is something called the circle of control, and it works as well for adults as it does for children and because of the impact it has, because it can be things like even just something as simple as saying we'll have a neutral point where we arrange to hand over the children, for example, and then the perpetrator at the last minute will change the location, change the time.
Lucy Wade:
It's all these little things just to cause more anxiety, more stress. It's when you have this circle of control in front of you, the outer part of the circle is saying you know, what can't you control? You can't control how they behave, you can't control the fact they're going to send a message saying you know, what can't you control? You can't control how they behave, you can't control the fact they're going to send a message saying you know, I'm going to change it to 2.30, from two o'clock or whatever it is, even if you're on route, whatever it may be, you can't control that. What you can control in the inner circle is how you respond to it. So, as much as you're angry, as much as it's not fair taking that to one side and saying, ok, fine, I'm not going to respond, because the more you give the perpetrator the oxygen and that fuel, the more they that's, that's what they feed off. So it's actually learning to stand back and say because, unfortunately, that impact will keep going on, because they know they're getting to you.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, it is like dealing with children, isn't it? Isn't it? You know? That's exactly what we're taught to as parents, or told as parents. You know don't kind of respond, because if you respond, that's exactly what the child's looking for a response for attention, for whatever from you. And it's exactly the same with perpetrators, isn't it?
Lucy Wade:
Yeah, stamping their feet when they don't get their own way? Yeah, yeah.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's terrifying. Um, so we've talked about kind of during the divorce process, but unfortunately, even after you've got through the divorce process and you've got your financial settlement sorted and housing, hopefully, is sorted by this point and life feels like it can start to move on, there are still many instances where the abuse still continues. It might have lessened a little bit because you're not in the house with them all the time, you're not having to deal with them every second of the day, but there are still and not all the time, but there are still perpetrators who will continue the abuse even after after the divorce concludes as well. What can you give us some examples and some some things that that might be going on at that point?
Lucy Wade:
yeah absolutely so obviously, stalking and harassment is something we've heard about for a very long time. Obviously, in terms of abuse, now it is. It is an offense, but it isn't just an in-person thing anymore. It is something that they can use social media. The perpetrator can use trackers on cars. They can, if children are involved, contact the children through online gaming, even if there's a restraining order or non-molestation order in place. So there's lots and lots of ways a perpetrator can still infiltrate their lives and they feel, like you know, for the victim survivor.
Lucy Wade:
It feels for them like there's no escape.
Lucy Wade:
And one thing I talk about again in the sessions I do is around terminology, so we hear all these words like love bombing, trauma, bonding and what perpetrators will do in terms of thing is they know or they think they know you and they think they know how to get to you. So it could be emails or messages saying and you know I miss you and it was all a big mistake and I'm sorry. And because that person has become trauma bonded with the perpetrator, they may feel sorry for them and they they may contact them especially if the perpetrator, which again happens very frequently is I'm going to kill myself or I'm going to kill the children or harm a family pet.
Lucy Wade:
These are all classic signs of what a perpetrator is willing to say and do to get that attention. There's also something else that I talk about, called triangulation, again in terms of terminology.
Lucy Wade:
So when a perpetrator, if you picture, a triangle if a perpetrator is, say, at this part of the triangle, and then you've got the victim, what they will do is they will introduce either a family, friend or work colleague into the mix. So if they felt like they've lost control, they will then try and use those people, um as as almost like bargaining chips as a part of a chess game.
Lucy Wade:
So they will say, well, I do really miss them, I do really care. Or the opposite side is, they're insane, they're bonkers and try and come out with all sorts of stories that then the family panic and think, well, maybe actually he's right, she's wrong. She's right, he's wrong. It can get very confusing and then family can be drawn in, to which you know. Very often for victims and survivors, they don't even know how to talk to their family and friends about it. So they're very, very clever perpetrators and very cunning.
Lucy Wade:
They know what they're doing so anybody you know I was asked once about is saying drugs and alcohol. The reason someone's abusive and my answer is always the same it will exacerbate the situation, but an abuser chooses to abuse. It's as simple as that.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely Interesting what you say about family being drawn in, because the children can often be the family that's drawn in, can't they?
Lucy Wade:
oh yeah, yeah definitely, and that's again you know.
Lucy Wade:
If, for example, you have somebody who's in accommodation with very little finance, um, and trying to rebuild the life, you've got a perpetrator who is in a position where they have lots of money and can do what they want. They will use gifts and you know they. They're sort of well, I can take you on these amazing holidays, I can do what they want. They will use gifts and you know the sort of well, I can take you on these amazing holidays and I can do all this, which again makes the victim survivor parent feel worthless, that they can't provide all those things for the child. And again, when I have worked with people, what I will always come down to say is a child wants to be loved and all you have to do as the victim survivor is keep showing them that genuine love. They will eventually see that the perpetrator parent because perpetrators will always trip up because they don't know how to love when it comes to a situation where they need to put their child's needs first, they won't do it.
Lucy Wade:
They are 100 percent and eventually, as the children get older, they will see that the perpetrator parent isn't putting them first and they will see that the victim survivor parent is the one that's constantly trying to put their needs before their own or anybody else's yeah, absolutely, no, totally, totally agree with that.
Tamsin Caine:
It's really hard to do because when you take a long time when you see the other person and and it, yeah, it can be it can be years to to get through that. There's another term that's very jargony that we hear used and I just want to touch on this because it it's something I did a talk yesterday, um, and it was something that came up during the during the talk. Um is about gas lighting, because this has a massive, massive impact on the victim's survivors' confidence, on the way that they deal with information that's given to them by other people, not just the perpetrator. Could you talk a little bit about what gaslighting is and the impact that it has and how it's sometimes used by perpetrators?
Lucy Wade:
Yeah, so just to give a little bit of general knowledge.
Lucy Wade:
We hear a lot about the term gaslighting, but it's originally from I think it was a play first and it was turned into a film.
Lucy Wade:
I think it was. If anyone's old enough to remember Ingrid Bergman, she plays the character who is being gaslighted and it was something like 1943, I think. The film and the story around it is that she's losing. She feels like she's losing her mind. You know she's going insane because of the games that her partner is playing. Her husband is playing to convince her that she's insane. And that is essentially what gaslighting is somebody trying to convince you that your reality isn't what it is. It it's to absolutely get you in a state and just to give an example I think I touched on GPs before you will find that victims and survivors- will contact their GP, and I'm talking about people who are in their 30s who are convinced that they're going through early dementia or they are going through early stages of Alzheimer's because they're so convinced.
Lucy Wade:
The perpetrator said to them but don't you remember? I told you that no, I said I was going out.
Lucy Wade:
Don't you remember I paid that bill, or don't you remember? Or to the point where they're taking out loans in that person's name, and so the gaslighting is very, very dangerous. Obviously it's very manipulative, but it can actually make somebody feel like they are losing their mind, and that me is you know we talk about the physical aspect of abuse gaslighting is is an area again that everybody sort of knows, the term, but doesn't really understand um the the devastation that it does cause.
Lucy Wade:
And yeah, for somebody to get to that point where they feel like they're losing their mind that if you can imagine, that's how clever a perpetrator is, that they can make that as you know, to one human being to another, they can convince that person that they they are losing their mind and that will obviously affect their mental health it's not a.
Tamsin Caine:
It's not a one-off situation gaslighting, is it? It's not some. It's done subtly and carefully and controlling and over a period of a huge amount of time to get people to the point where they believe that they're going insane and that the reality that they're experiencing isn't actually the reality. That's not. That's not done over a week or a couple of days or whatever it's. That's that's years worth of absolutely putting that behavior into place, isn't it?
Tamsin Caine:
it's terrifying yeah, oh, it is is, and I, I sort of I think I use the term drip fed, so it's like a it's like you know, they drip feed these comments and these.
Lucy Wade:
You know, and from the very, very beginning, when you know again terminology, we talk about love bombing in the beginning. So in the beginning it's like this person is so perfect, you know everything, just care about me. They put me on a pedestal. Everything's amazing, everything's wonderful. And over time, you know, they slowly start to show who they are. But then they apologize. So now we're in the trauma bond, so now we want to get back to the bit where we were happy with that person. So we keep going around and around and around. And then obviously they bring in the gaslighting, the coercive control. They bring in if the physical element comes in. You know there's. I think that's why it is hard for society to understand, because and what I'll often say is- if I'm doing a session and somebody says well, you know, it's all very interesting, but this doesn't impact me.
Lucy Wade:
I will always say how do you know? Because your life to you may seem normal, and that's fine, but what's your normal? Is your normal that you don't have control of?
Lucy Wade:
your finances is your normal. You don't have control of what you wear.
Lucy Wade:
You know, you know what kind of and something as simple as um again this came out in a session a while ago was around tea bags, so the perpetrator picking what type of tea you drink. So I know somebody who at the end of the relationship, when they managed to leave and would have pg tips over Yorkshire tea because they could decide what tea bags they had. That's how insidious, that's how deep rooted it is that someone can have that level of control Because we all go oh, I wouldn't let someone dictate to me.
Lucy Wade:
But it's not like that.
Lucy Wade:
It happens very slowly, oh I just bought them in the shop and then every week it happens and before you know it you're there and you're just accepting it.
Tamsin Caine:
You know um so it can be as simple as that yeah, I think certainly I have worked with people who, at the point at which they first come to me, do not realize that they've been in an abusive relationship. They don't, and it's and I think you've said it earlier today it's not the fists, it's not those people who've got black eyes, it's not the people who've got broken arms, it's not just the domestic violence that we need to worry about. Domestic abuse runs deep and sometimes the mental harm can be as bad, if not worse, than the physical harm. That's done and, as I say, it's what becomes somebody's normal. So they'll come to see me and we'll start talking about money and the finances and we'll, you know, we'll gradually talk about you know what money have you got? Where is it? Oh, you've got an ISA Fantastic, who's that with?
Tamsin Caine:
And a lot of the time it's like I don't know, don't know where my money is. Yes, it is in my name, but I don't. It's. He's got the password. I have asked him, but I'm not allowed. You know, he won't, he won't give me the information. And suddenly that becomes this gradual realization. Actually, maybe what I thought was okay actually wasn't okay, and it can kind of comes out at that stage. So even even at the stage where they they've left, they don't.
Lucy Wade:
Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important the work that you do and like yourselves because know it's talking to somebody like myself who at the time was working for a domestic abuse charity people don't necessarily know to seek that support. So when it's in their day-to-day lives and it's something that they're having to deal with, to be able to talk to people who understand and say, okay, I can talk you through this.
Lucy Wade:
And then, like you say, you know, in a gentle way, be able to say well, have you thought that?
Lucy Wade:
maybe because you don't know what the password is, or you know, and again, it's that, it's that lovely.
Lucy Wade:
You know with you. There's no victim blaming, there's no kind of well, how can you not know what the password is?
Lucy Wade:
I had somebody on an episode recently called Sharon Jackson and she's a social worker and she talks about an incident in court. Court, wait, now we're talking social workers and the social worker who she was opposite take side of the table to was actually saying to the victim um well, why didn't you just leave?
Lucy Wade:
you know, this is what we're talking about. The language that's used is you know how, how?
Lucy Wade:
terrible is that that, and you're a social worker, but so for people?
Lucy Wade:
like yourselves, who are working day in, day out with with an area of which is very, very important and obviously it's very scary for somebody if they've never dealt with it. It's so important to have people like yourself that know to have that unconscious bias to not go in there with any kind of well I could have told you so which very often family and friends tend to say to to their loved ones who've experienced this. And I think it's so important that people like you are doing what you're doing because Karen Kipping came on and we ironically, one of the blogs she's written for you Don't Own Me is all around.
Lucy Wade:
Is it abuse if my partner doesn't hit me? And it's a question I used to get asked a lot when I run groups within the charity and you know somebody would sit there and say, well, they never hit me, so it can't possibly be. And it's having that very gentle conversation around. Okay, well, let's break this down and let's look at certain areas and eventually they kind of go oh, my God, you know it's like that light bulb moment and coming out of that fog and saying, wait a minute. So the fact that they called me every name under the sun, yes, that's verbal abuse. You know they would lie to me about where they were, but convince me so, yes, that's gaslighting and psychological abuse they were, but convinced me so that, yes, that's gaslighting and psychological abuse and it just. You know, you have to tread carefully, because you're basically telling somebody that what they've been living isn't real and that can have massive. That's why I talk a lot about self-care as well, because that can be huge, a huge lifesaver
Tamsin Caine:
That's enormous. Um, I want to ask you about the work that you do, but before I that, just whilst I'm thinking about it, this abuse in any definition of the word. It's across the board, it's not. It's not financial specific. So it doesn't matter if you've got millions in the bank or nothing in the bank. Millions in the bank or nothing in the bank, it's not going to be selective. There are not. It's not. Oh well, it only happens to people who were in X category or below Y category. You know, we see it across multimillionaires and across people who, unfortunately, have very little. It's not picking out particular people, is it?
Lucy Wade:
it's right, but that is such an important point to make. And again, within the sessions, I think I highlight one of the sentences I usually say is abuse doesn't discriminate you know it doesn't pick a particular demographic and say I'm gonna, you know I'm gonna go there.
Lucy Wade:
It's not like that, like you say, it's across the board. It doesn't matter if you've got a million pounds or one pound. You know that an abuser will abuse because it is about power and control. Um, and that's. You know. That's where, unfortunately, that's where it is terrifying. It's not like when you're trying to talk to people you say, well, just pinpoint it for me and you can't. You can't because anyone can be abusive. If they choose to be you know controlling and you know wanting power, then then they will be abusive
Tamsin Caine:
It's not. It also doesn't discriminate on on race or sexuality. We've we've um had on our first episode of this series, a lady who's in um a gay relationship, lesbian relationship, and she's suffered abuse at the hands of her ex and that's ongoing, unfortunately. And you know it really isn't like when you say it's not discriminative, it really isn't like by age, by gender, by sexuality, by race, by it unfortunately is happening across the board.
Lucy Wade:
It is and I think you're 100% right and I think there can actually then be additional challenges. So when I talk about the impact of abuse, you know for somebody who I've got a lady coming on in a few weeks and she has cerebral palsy and she's deaf and she has a British Sign.
Lucy Wade:
Language interpreter and I had a conversation with her interpreter and I have to admit, as professional as I am, I got really emotional about it because you know, we think, the challenges that somebody faces who's able-bodied, you think of the additional challenge challenges that somebody faces when they are not able to take care of themselves and they need somebody else to help and that abuser will use that as a way to control and and abuse. And again, you know BAME community and I've got later coming on in a few weeks we're talking about the challenges for BAME communities. So obviously, ethnic minorities around. If there's an issue over, maybe a translator is needed. If they've gone to the police, that can take time and by the time the translator arrives the perpetrators manage to convince them not to say anything and to drop you know the charges and looking for support in their own language.
Lucy Wade:
And you know there's so many. And again, like you say, LGBTQ plus it's. I did work with somebody who was supporting somebody who talked about their own experience. They've been completely ostracized and isolated by their own family because of their choice of relationship and when they went for support they were told you know well, what do you want us to do about this sort of thing? And it's, and again, it's knowing where to look for that support.
Lucy Wade:
So say for, in Manchester, it would be LGBT foundation or it would be Gallup, or it would you know, it's knowing, and that's why I think, with my website, I try and create resources that are for everybody rather than j ust, you know, pinpointing different areas, because it impacts everybody
Tamsin Caine:
We're coming to the end of our conversation, although I could talk to you all afternoon um, in fact, we nearly did before we record on the podcast, um, because we can talk, can't we? Um, I'd love to to know, just before we go, how people can um access your support, how you support people who are um going through post-separation abuse. We'll obviously put links to podcasts and to your websites and so on um in the show notes, but but just tell us a bit about how you support people.
Lucy Wade:
Yeah, so through my, I kind of have two channels. So one is the podcast, which is a community interest company, which is there as a resource Spotify, youtube and it's there with lots and lots of different professionals, including yourself, who are giving amazing advice that you may not want to go and seek through a support service. So it's to give people that may not want to go and seek through a support service. So it's to give people that option that you can go and listen to something, dip in and out of it as they choose, and it may be that there's several episodes that resonate with them. It may not just be one, it could be lots of different things, um, and within within that, um, as I say, it's just, it's just to help somebody if they want to go down that visual route.
Lucy Wade:
Whereas you don't own me, um, I do, obviously, lots of blogs, I do lots of guest blogs, which will be soon moving over to the with the podcast that will go on a separate website, but you don't own me itself.
Lucy Wade:
I work with lots of organizations and that's how I support people. So when organizations um ask me to come in and deliver a session, I will be talking to their staff and, again. You know, if we look at under reporting or if we look at statistics, somebody within that hundred people that I'm delivering a session to, inevitably at some point somebody will come forward and say actually I'm experiencing this, and that's where you don't only has all the resources you can go and find out. Anybody you need to speak to. Yours are on there as well, obviously, and so that you know if it is something financial or if it is something um psychological, whatever is going on, there's a resource there and that's how I try and um support people through speaking to organizations and so that staff and actually for the organization to understand where they can signpost people to what they can do about self-care.
Lucy Wade:
If they don't want to look for support, how they can, you know, look after their own well-being? If they don't want to look for support, how they can, you know, look after their own wellbeing? If they don't necessarily, if the timing isn't right and they don't want to seek support immediately. I'm trying to cover the whole gambit.
Tamsin Caine:
Everybody. That's the way. That's absolutely brilliant. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been fantastic to talk to you. I'm sure we'll have you back on again at some point, because I'm sure we could talk about so many more things, but for now, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you for listening today.
Tamsin Caine:
If you've enjoyed today's episode or found it useful, please leave us a five-star review, because it does help us to get the podcast out to more people. Thank you and we'll see you next time. Thank you and we'll see you next time, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a facebook group now. It's called separation, divorce and dissolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us, and the one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.