Caron Kipping, a renowned expert, private IDVA and divorce coach in the fiel
d of domestic abuse, joins Tamsin to shed light on a critical issue that affects many lives. Throughout their conversation, Caron shares her invaluable insights on the role of Independent Domestic Violence Advocates (IDVAs) and how they collaborate with various agencies to support high-risk survivors.
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Caron Kipping
Caron Kipping is based in South Buckinghamshire – Author of ‘Recognition to Recovery – How to leave your abusive partner behind for good!’ she is a survivor of domestic abuse, has worked in the sector for 17 years and has her own busy practice as one of the leading Divorce Coaches in the UK. Caron offers practical help and guidance to clients who are separating from abusive and controlling partners – guiding them through the legal process and way beyond.
https://caronkippingcoaching.com/
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis. So we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away. So if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening.
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast and I'm very happy to welcome back one of our previous and very popular guests, Caron Kipping. Hi, Caron, thank you for joining me today.
Caron Kipping:
Thank
Tamsin Caine:
So Caron is a survivor of domestic abuse and a master practitioner -can't read today - master practitioner of divorce cases, specialising in abusive and coercive relationships. She's worked for many years within the charity sector, overseeing a team of IDVAs - we'll talk more about that shortly - and managing high risk cases of domestic abuse.
Tamsin Caine:
Caron is also the author of the fabulous book which I recommend all the time, called recognition to recovery, how to leave your abusive past behind for good, and is passionate about raising awareness of coercive control. So I'm massively looking forward to this conversation because I have spoken to Caron many times and including am incredibly naive about this area. But I'm trying to learn much more because I work with people all of the time who are victims, survivors of domestic abuse, who many, many times are only actually coming to the realization that they've been in an abusive relationship after they've already left. But I want to try and speak today about some of the support that's available to women and men in this situation. So we're going to talk about IDVAs today. So first of all, obvious, obvious, basic question what is an IDVA?
Caron Kipping:
So first of all, I would like to say thank you for choosing this as a topic, because this is actually a question I get asked a lot. You know what is an IDVA or an IDVA? You know, however you want to say it, um, you know. Even police officers, social workers, housing officers sometimes say you know. Even police officers, social workers, housing officers sometimes say you know what's an IDFA.
Caron Kipping:
And I have to roll my eyes and say, well, you should really know what an IDVA is. But anyway, so an IDVA stands for Independent Domestic Violence Advocate, so it's a professional qualification. You have to do quite a lot of work. You have to usually be working with high risk survivors of domestic abuse, usually within the charitable sector for an organisation like Women's Aid or Refuge or one of those kind of charitable specialist organisations. When you do the course and then you have to do quite a lot of work and case studies etc, and um, then you get your certificate, but your professional qualification at the end and the the role of an IDFA really is to reduce the risk as quickly as possible for high-risk survivors of domestic abuse, men or women, right, people that are at kind of imminent risk of danger from their partner or their ex-partner or a family member. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a direct partner, it could be a parent, it could be a sibling, you know. So it's all those different dynamics of domestic abuse that we are trained in, in dealing with, and so we're really the specialists in terms of being able to recognize a serious risk of harm. Uh, safety planning as a follow-up to that, I'm really looking at where that survivor is in terms of their understanding of domestic abuse and understanding what they want from the relationship. You know, are they ready to separate? Are they not? Do they still feel like they love that person? You know? So we do a lot of um motivational interviewing, so a lot of um work trying to get them to a recognize the risk that they're at, understand the dynamics of their relationship and come to terms with you know um the fact that it's not a healthy relationship, essentially, and to get them to think about making decisions and prioritizing their needs above the needs of the abuser.
Caron Kipping:
Okay, um, and also looking at safeguarding. So IDVA's traditionally work in partnership with other professional agencies so they might link in with police or social services or health or housing. So it's really looking at the whole picture. So you know, if you go to a solicitor, a solicitor will give you advice based on the legal aspects. You know what your rights are legally. You know what you can do in terms of civil law, criminal law. But they might not necessarily take into consideration other things that are going on in your life. You know you might have a really limited support network. You might have children that have got additional needs. You might not feel like you can move to the other end of the country, you know, to go into a refuge and helping that survivor, weigh up the pros and cons of the options and really looking at empowering them to make their own choices, to take control back over their life and to make decisions that are right for them.
Caron Kipping:
And, at the same time, an advert is an advocate, so we are able to speak up for that person if they're not able to do so. So again, traditionally we would sit in on child protection meetings, safeguarding meetings. We might contact the police on their behalf to get updates, you know. So it's really being that key person that can coordinate all of the agencies that might be relevant for that person and create this whole support team, if you like, to help reduce the risk and support that survivor as much as possible. So a NIDVA can be really useful in terms of contacting other professionals that might help you, rather than that survivor having to do all the legwork and make numerous calls and retell their story over and over again to each individual person. And sometimes, when you get an advocate speaking up on your behalf, other professionals will listen right, whereas if it's a survivor, sometimes it's hard for them to articulate how they feel it's. It's hard for them to speak up and find the confidence to do that and they, you know, particularly when that relationship is coercive and there's not a lot of tangible evidence, it can quite often be be lost. You know, it's just like one person's word against the other. So, in in terms of what an IVVA does, it's really looking at risk first, safety planning then looking at what support is needed for that individual. What do they want to happen? You know? Do they want the relationship to end? Do they want to move out? Do they want the other person to move out? What kind of support do they need? What support have they already got? What are struggling with? What's going well? So it's it's looking at all of that and keeping in regular contact with that person so that they know they've got that support.
Caron Kipping:
Um, and you know again, traditionally most IDVAs work within the charitable sector. Now, this sounds great. You know in theory that you know people can access this for support. Now, the downside is that it is a bit of a postcode lottery. It depends on where you live as to what support you can actually access because they are charitable organizations. We've lost a lot of funding over the years and you know services change all the time, so the the types of support that they can offer does vary from place to place and time to time, so you do have to try and keep on on top of what's available in your area if you're a professional working with clients like this.
Caron Kipping:
Now, some services will be able to offer support for high risk survivors.
Caron Kipping:
Some will be able to offer support for high risk survivors and, you know, those at medium risk where the risk is not so evident but they're still having a lot of challenges.
Caron Kipping:
Some will be able to offer support groups, which are great, right, but they might only be able to offer support groups for specific types of cases. You know, it depends on how they're funded and, um, an IDVA traditionally will work with somebody quite intensely for about 12 weeks and you would hope that within that 12 weeks you would be able to reduce the risk down quite significantly and get them all the help that they need. And then off they go and, you know, try and manage the rest of their situation with a bit of ongoing support, maybe from other organisations, other professionals. Now I started, I diversified from being an IDVA working within the charitable sector to being a divorce coach with that IDVA experience, and the reason why I did that was because there is a gap. You know, there is a gap in the support that is available for people. You know everything isn't done and dusted within 12 weeks quite often, you know, you know what it's like.
Caron Kipping:
No, no. When you're going through financial proceedings, when you're going through family court, that takes months, you know, sometimes it can take a couple of years, and so that person needs that ongoing support. But the charitable sector can't necessarily offer that because they just don't have the capacity to do that. So that's where my coaching services and peer support groups, you know, came in and, as an IDVA, now the law has changed to allow IDVAs to be able to support survivors within the family court, to be able to sit in court with them and to be able to offer that quiet advice and guidance and make sure that they feel more supported in that situation.
Caron Kipping:
However, again the downside is is IDVAs within the charitable sector really can't offer that right now because they just don't have capacity. You know they are managing 25 cases usually at a time as a minimum, okay, and they are high risk cases, the very intense work. They don't have capacity to sit for a whole day in court or three to five days for fact-finding hearing. You know they just don't have that capacity to do that. So that's where my experience can be really useful, because I can do that for clients, you know.
Caron Kipping:
Unfortunately, you know, not everybody's going to be able to access it because it is a paid for service. But I try and keep those costs reasonable to make sure that people can access that support. But it is a really it is a really valuable service and I really wish that more IDFAs would be able to do that. I think there is going to be some funding coming available to train up I think, 300 IDFAs across the country for family court support, and most of those IDFAs will be coming from the charitable sector, which will be great because, you know, I just think it's great that they've put this in place, but they haven't really thought through, thought through the practicalities of how that's going to happen so they definitely need to invest more funding into the charitable sector if that's going to work.
Caron Kipping:
Yeah, absolutely yeah. So that's quite a new thing that IDVAs are allowed to do that. But that's essentially what IDVAs do, and I've still got links with Safeguarding and with my local domestic abuse sector, so we kind of cross-refer in and out and I can refer into professional meetings for high-risk clients to look at getting that multi-agency support.
Tamsin Caine:
Yes, absolutely. So many questions just from what you've just said, so I want to start with a relatively basic question how are we defining risk level? So what does high risk mean?
Caron Kipping:
Yes, so you define risk level by what does what? What? What does high risk mean? Yeah, so you define risk level by um, there's a? There's a risk assessment tool that we use as it was. It's called the dash risk assessment.
Caron Kipping:
So domestic abuse, stalking and harassment risk assessment. It's the same tool that most police officers use. Some forces have changed to a different tool, but traditionally we've all used this same tool of reference, really, and some social workers are trained to use it as well. Basically, it's a set of 24 questions that we ask, and these questions are based on research. You know they are predictors of serious harm. You know, because perpetrators of domestic abuse all do very similar things. You know they all say and do very similar things and there are certain things that they will do, certain behaviours that they have that will lead on to more serious harm. So they are very clear predictors. You know, if you look at women that have died through domestic abuse, there are certain things that happen in the lead up to that and that are very common across all these cases.
Caron Kipping:
So what we're trying to do is we're trying to predict what level of harm a person is at. Okay, so we tick the boxes yes and no, all right, and we also bring professional judgment into it. You, what do we feel? As if there's a risk factors. So there might be certain things that a person experiences, or you know something in their background that makes us believe that they are at serious risk of harm risk of palm, and uh, it's.
Caron Kipping:
If you're looking at the number of tick boxes, somebody that ticks 14 out of 24 would be considered high risk, right? Anything above 14 and above is high risk, right. Anything kind of between 8 and 14 is medium risk, all right, and then standard risk would be below that. Most people generally fall into the standard risk category, but there are certain people that will fall into the high risk category and they are definitely at risk of significant harm. So they definitely need more support than I could offer as a coach. They need safeguarding help, they need help from police help. They need help from police. Maybe they need help from housing or you know.
Tamsin Caine:
They need more intense support to make sure that they're not at risk yeah, okay, wow, um, okay, so we're you know high risk is pretty damn serious.
Caron Kipping:
It's about asking those, um key questions to tease out information from that, because that survivor doesn't necessarily know what level of risk they're at. They might be scared, but everybody's perception of being scared is different, so you have to drill down a little bit and ask really key questions. So, okay, if you're scared, what are you scared of? Are you worried that they're going to harm you? Have they made any threats to you before? Have they got access to weapons at all? You know? Are they financially abusive? Have they ever threatened to take the children from you or what you know? Have they ever threatened suicide? Have they ever threatened to kill you? So real kind of key questions, yeah. And then it's not just asking those key questions, it's teasing out even more information to get a real sense of what's happened in the past, you know, and what might come in the future.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. Does the questionnaire also link to legal aid and does it also link to how the police work with that, with that person, how what their involvement is?
Caron Kipping:
yes, so, um, you can, you wouldn't. You wouldn't get um a copy of the risk assessment as such from uh, an IDFA that works within a charitable organisation. It's a confidential document, you know, and it should be right. But what that IDVA can do is they can write a supporting letter for legal aid purposes to say this person has come to our service, we've professionally risk assessed them, we believe that they are a survivor of domestic abuse or coercive control.
Caron Kipping:
We we're happy to support their legal aid application right, that's one of the pieces of evidence that you can use to support your legal aid application.
Caron Kipping:
I can't do that because I'm an independent, if I don't work for an organization and the parameters at the moment are only for charitable organisations. Okay, for police. Police have specialist domestic abuse officers, so they have departments that solely deal with domestic abuse, and for you to access support and protection from those police officers, you do generally have to come under the high risk bracket, because there are different things that the police can do to help you stay safe. They can offer you alarms, they have an app now where you can directly upload information and evidence to the app, etc. Directly upload information and evidence to the app, etc. They will have those specially trained officers who have that extra knowledge and experience about domestic abuse to help you. If you don't come into that bracket, then you tend to be signposted to Victims First or Victim Support or those kind of organisations who can offer you a little bit of ongoing support, um and practical help and signposting
Tamsin Caine:
wow
Tamsin Caine:
, there's so much to this, isn't there?
Tamsin Caine:
um, so it sounds to me like contacting a charitable organization who has it working within it. Is that it's pretty important when you feel like you've been in an abusive relationship. That's almost the first call. Is that kind of what your thought is?
Caron Kipping:
Yeah, definitely. I always recommend for people to to contact them because it's free, for a start. It doesn't cost you a penny. They are the specialists, you know they. They get it. There's not going to be any judgment when you call up or when you email them and you ask for help. Right, they're going to do the risk assessment, so they're going to have that professional knowledge and understanding about how to best support you and then they will be able to offer you whatever appropriate support they feel you need. Ok, so it's about opening up your support network and getting as much support as possible. A lot of people feel like, oh, I shouldn't go to a domestic abuse organisation because you know there's other people that are much more in need than I am. You know, I hear that a lot and I'm like no, go to them. That's what they're there for. They're there to help you. If they can't help you, they will tell you All right, but ask. There's no harm in asking. Is there? Absolutely.
Caron Kipping:
Go to them ask get that validation from them. You know that everything you're worried about you're right to be worried about yeah, get that support, get that emotional support, get that practical help, if they can offer it to you.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, definitely so would you. Is it best to start with the domestic abuse helpline? Is it best to start with women's aid? If you're female, is it best to start with your local service? Like where, where should somebody go first?
Caron Kipping:
so you can ring the domestic national helpline, that has the database of all of the domestic abuse organizations, um, those organizations and the support. Again, you know they do change from time to time. So you can you know. If you're not sure where to look, that's an easy thing to do is to just google the national domestic violence helpline. It's open 24 hours a day. You might have to keep calling to get through because obviously it's inundated um, but you can do that. They will essentially signpost you anyway to your local domestic abuse organization.
Caron Kipping:
So if you just google low domestic abuse support in whatever town you live in, it will usually come up with your local organization. Might not be called women's aid, it might be called something else, might be called solace or um, you know other names of organizations, but it will tell you who is in your area or it will give you the link to the local council website, which usually has a domestic abuse page on there. All right, it tells you who to contact because for some cities as well, they they've broken up into different geographical areas. So, say, you live in west Sussex compared to east Sussex, there might be two different organizations. So, yeah, um, just google, really, and and look and and see what you can find out and then call them or email them and just say this is my situation. You know, I feel I need some support. How can you help? And they'll take it from there.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. And something that you said before about people feeling that you said that when somebody contacts a service they're not going to get any judgment, that when somebody contacts a service they're not going to get any judgment. And I just wanted to touch on this because this is something that I get all of the time is people saying I feel so stupid that I've let this happen. And I just wanted to talk on that for a bit because that breaks my heart, because abusers are subtle, they're devious, they're generally coercive, they know what they're doing to manipulate the situation and, you know, nobody who speaks me about their experience is going to receive judgment of me thinking like they should have known better and they should have worked it out earlier, because that you know we're all human and that these abusers are following a pattern, as you've said it's it's kind of always down the same process, isn't it?
Tamsin Caine:
so
Tamsin Caine:
just wondered if you could talk on that for a bit, because I just think that's very important,
Caron Kipping:
sure, before I do, I just want to go back quickly before I forget, right, because men do find it difficult to reach out for support. And again, just google domestic abuse support for men in my area and it will come up lots of domestic abuse organizations do support men now as well as women and have very good support.
Caron Kipping:
So definitely go to them, or you can look at the mankind uk website. They have a helpline too. They can call them, but yeah there definitely is support for men out there. Now they don't feel like they have to struggle on their own.
Tamsin Caine:
Oh perfect, thank you! I think that's really important because I think, in a way, men find it even more difficult than women to come forward and and it almost feels like they're just like saying something against their gender. If they come forward, like they should be able to cope with it, this shouldn't be happening to them and it's you know? I think probably we don't. We know even less of the extent of domestic abuse against men than we do about women, because there's there's a fear of coming forward. So, yeah, thank you for that there is that and a lot.
Caron Kipping:
I mean, I've definitely seen an increase in male clients coming forward, which is good, which is good. It's good that they're coming forward to get that support. It's sad but it's good. Yeah, I know it's sad but it's good. And a lot of men will quite often prefer to come to somebody like a coach rather than go to a domestic abuse organisation that predominantly supports women, then go to a domestic abuse organisation that predominantly supports women. You know, it's just that feeling of having that confidential support, just on a one-to-one basis. I don't know if men just seem to prefer that sometimes, but there are great organisations out there that can support men. There are, unfortunately, very few men-only organisations. Unfortunately very few men-only organisations, you know, again, for funding reasons and all that kind of stuff. But Mankind UK are a great organisation who are doing a lot of campaign for men.
Caron Kipping:
So, going back to what you were talking about, with people feeling like they should have been able to spot the sign sooner, it's very common to carry that guilt and to feel the weight of, you know, being the person to make the decision and breaking up the family, etc. But yeah, nobody has a crystal ball, right? Right, you know, you only know what you know. At the time when you went into the relationship, you didn't know it was going to turn out like this, otherwise you wouldn't have stayed in it. Right, you know you would have got out sooner. But it feeds in over time and usually by the time you realise what's happening, you are tied together with that person. You have a life together, you have a home, you have shared friends, you have children together, and then it's very difficult to leave, um, so yeah, it's not uncommon to think, oh, I should have left sooner or I'm so stupid. You know you're not stupid, you know you, you want to believe the best in the person, right?
Caron Kipping:
you want, you don't want to accept that this person is intentionally hurting you. You know whether that's emotionally or physically. You know you want to. You want to try and do your best to fix things to keep your relationship going to, to make it happier and better and all the rest of it. But of course you're not the problem, so you know it doesn't matter what you do it's not going to work.
Caron Kipping:
Um, yeah, it's a. It's a process that you go through, you know, to get to that point where you realize that this relationship isn't is not good, and for some people that takes many years, for some people it takes a few months. You know everybody's everybody's different. But you need to let go of that guilt for not spotting it sooner, because it's not your fault.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah abosolutely. And and there there are things that have been happening that that you don't necessarily spot, or you you have been coerced into believing that these things are being done for the, for your good and the family's good. So don't worry about the money. I will look after it. Don't, don't bother yourself with it, you don't need to know they are expert liars, expert manipulators.
Caron Kipping:
Uh, they know exactly what to say and do to keep you under their control. Really, you know, because it's all based on having power and control over you and they create this culture of fear and dependence in your relationship. So they want you to believe that you know they're right and you're wrong. They want you to protect yourself. They want to destroy your confidence and your self-esteem. You know, and they will do whatever it takes.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, it's just really saddening and frustrating that people, people say also, um, so, as if if it's so responsible for what's happened to them and they just it's, it's just, it's such a shame, um, okay, so, um, accessing givers is only available by a charity. It sort of feels from everything that we've talked about so far that it would be really useful if some people in the wider world could do it for training and be available on a private, like on a, to have that service, you know, if they have the funds available which, as we talked about, isn't everybody but to have that available for people to go training, to be able to train and be able to do that work in the wider world if there was the availability of funding to pay for it. Are there any plans for that to happen?
Caron Kipping:
Not that I know of. Unfortunately, the only plans are, like I said, to fund the IDVAs in the charitable sector, to do that work within the family court. But you know that's 300.
Caron Kipping:
And you know how much work there is and how much need there is for that kind of support and, yeah, I can offer it in court, but I'm one person and there's only so many court hearings that I can attend and I, you know, I'm only in the southeast, so, you know, for people in the north there's definitely a need and, you know, more court hearings are moving away from virtual to in person now again, which again is going to limit the the ability for iffas to attend. So, yeah, it's, it's definitely an area that needs to be looked at yeah, and it's, it's.
Tamsin Caine:
It strikes me that it's not just in court hearings, but actually having that person there to hold your hand.
Caron Kipping:
Yeah, that longer term support there's definitely a need for it. There's definitely a need for longer term support. I've had some of my clients for five years. You know when clients come to me for coaching there's no closure day, right. You don't do six sessions and then go away and carry on with your life, because post-separation abuse goes on for years.
Caron Kipping:
And you know I work with people when the court system is finished, when the divorce is over. You know, when they've moved house and they've moved on. I still work with them because there are still issues that crop up from time to time and my clients still have wobbly moments and they still feel exhausted with the constant barrage of abuse that comes their way. You know we're just coming to the end of summer holidays that's been a nightmare for some of my clients and they've got court orders and child arrangement orders and what have you. But again these master manipulators. You know their behavior doesn't change. It doesn't change just because they're out of court. It doesn't change just because the risk is reduced it. You know they are who they are and all the time, while you've got children with that person or you've got some connection and some link, they still want to have that control over you.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely, Post-separation abuse is just, it's unfathomably terrifying. But, how you know, you kind of assume oh well, the divorce is done, the court order is made. But these are people who don't care about court orders. They're not interested in what a court order tells them they can or can't, or have to or haven't to do. It's not relevant. They're not going to abide by a piece of paper from a court.
Caron Kipping:
Unfortunately, and, to be honest, the IDVAs that work in the charitable sector are not always the experts in family court stuff, because that stuff happens after their cases have closed, whereas you know, with family court stuff you really have got to have that knowledge about what to put into your child arrangement order, what you should be asking for in terms of your finances and that. And that's where they need people like you and myself and you know people that work within that that kind of post-separation arena to give them that specialist advice, because if you don't know what you should be putting in your child arrangement order, if you don't know what you should be challenging in terms of finances, you can really come unstuck later on and it can make your life a lot harder.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it feels like there's a, there's a massive gap, that that new well, I mean not that I didn't think that before I started talking to you today but it feels like there's an even bigger gap where something could be done if only the training were available, kind of on a wider scale, because I know there are many of us professionals and we're going to speak to quite a lot of them over the course of this series who passionately want to see changes made and want to support survivors, passionately want to see changes made and want to support survivors, but in some ways are hands tied just from a lack of training and the lack of ability to support these survivors in the way that they potentially could. So, yeah, another one to add to the list of changes we'd like to see. Yeah, yeah, the long list. Oh, it's a very long list.
Tamsin Caine:
Tell me a bit about um, about if and obviously no names and so on, but a bit about how you might um support somebody who was, who was, in court as a nipper, because I can only imagine that courts are a pretty terrifying place to be. In the first place, presumably they are facing the perpetrator and being in the same room as them, potentially for the first time for a long time. How do you support them, and are they generally also supported by solicitors and barristers, or are they generally litigants in person?
Caron Kipping:
so it could be either. So I support clients who have a legal team, uh, and clients that are representing themselves a lot of clients representing themselves now because of the financial abuse and the fact that they struggle to access legal aid and they struggle to afford legal help. So quite often they do end up having to represent themselves in hearings and that can be yeah, might mightily scary when you're going to try and stand up for yourself and find your voice against the person that's abused, you and also within a system that you don't really understand. You know you've never probably been to court in your life before and all of a sudden you're trying to fight for your children and fight, you know, for finances, to to put a roof over your head and and survive, right. So these are important, big things that you're fighting for. So, um, if I've got a client who's got a legal team, it can work really well because the legal team can focus on their job and doing what they need to do in terms of standing up and advocating for their client, and I can support the client with their emotions and help keep them grounded and calm and do all the explaining about what's happening. So that can work really well, and also in the past I've managed to support clients with. You know, when they've had to make big decisions on the day you know they've had to think about on the day you know they've had to think about.
Caron Kipping:
Okay, right, let's draft this child arrangement order now. You know what do we need, what do we want to put in it. I can then help the barrister write it by saying, well, these are the common, you know um points of conflict that my clients typically have. You know the typical types of post-separation abuse. So maybe word it like this or put this bit of detail in it and that will ensure that, you know, hopefully that limits those points of conflict. And you know, and the child arrangement actually works better for that, for that client, so we can work as a real team with that client.
Caron Kipping:
And if clients are representing themselves, then, yeah, it's nice to be able to have somebody sit beside you in court, you know, so I can contact the court beforehand and make sure they've got their special measures. So make sure they maybe have got a separate entrance to the court from the abuser. Make sure they've got a separate waiting room. Make sure they've got a separate entrance to the court from the abuser, make sure they've got a separate waiting room, make sure they've got a screening court, and sit right beside the survivor Explain everything that's happening. If they don't understand something, if they're not sure about any of the jargon that gets used in court jargon that gets used in court um, I can give them quiet bits of advice in court and encourage them.
Caron Kipping:
You know, uh, we use lots of lavender spray and things like that to just kind of calm the nervous system a little bit, make sure that they're never on their own at any point. You know we go to the toilet together, we go to lunch together. I literally stick to them like glue and then we can have a debrief afterwards. You know how's it gone, what went well, what didn't go so well, you know what are the next steps. So they're really clear on what's happening and I write comprehensive notes as we go through the hearing and then type them up afterwards so then they can go away and digest it right. Yeah, because it's really hard to pick up on everything that's happening in court when you're trying to speak up for yourself. You're trying to listen to the other side, you're nervous anyway.
Tamsin Caine:
Um, so to have somebody that's there listening, picking up on things, doing a bit of that work for you, writing it down, so you don't forget, you know you've got really clear, comprehensive notes, it can really help yeah, absolutely, and I think one of the things that the clients in this position have said to me is that their fear is around not being believed because they in court, because they have been a victim of abuse, come across perhaps more timid, more meek, less confident of what they're saying, and the perpetrator is going to come across as very confident, very likable, um, very aware of what they're saying.
Tamsin Caine:
Uh, they probably have a more expensive legal team in many, many cases that they they're kind of presenting their case as the truth, be all and end all, and because of their nature and their lies and the way that they coerce the victim, survivor often feels that they're not going to be believed by the judge, by whoever else is in the room, and that they're going to lose out because of that. Is there anything that you can recommend to help that person who's going into the court, who's the victim's survivor can do to reassure them, to put them in a better position, other than having you by their side, which you know, if we could multiply you several hundred times, we would do?
Caron Kipping:
It is a very difficult situation and sometimes you know the abusers can come across as very charming you know, sometimes they can lose their rag in court, you know, and when they're backed into a corner or they're challenged, their true colours really can come out. So sometimes they can trip themselves up, you know, and when they're backed into a corner or they're challenged, their true colors really can come out. So sometimes they can trip themselves up. You know, and I think for survivors, it is just really about being brave and realizing this is your best shot to get what you need for the next couple of years or whatever, you know, however long you're you're you're looking at here in terms of your children, in terms of your finances. You've got to dig deep, you've got to be brave and you've got to find that inner strength from somewhere to to stand up for what is right, to stand up for what you believe in, to find your voice to challenge and say do you know what? I'm not scared of you anymore. Right, I am going to stand up. I am going to tell the world, you know what you've done. I am going to, you know, fight for my children. I am going to fight for myself now, right, right, because if you don't, you know, the chances are they might just believe the other side. You know, quite often it is one person's word against the other.
Caron Kipping:
Facts are absolutely key. So the more evidence you have, the more facts you have, the better. It is absolutely about trying to stay calm and focused, right, trying not to let the emotions overwhelm you, because it's natural to be emotional, it's natural to feel scared and worried and panicked and all of those things. But if you let those emotions overwhelm you, it's not going to help you. All right, and this is your one chance to to do your best. Okay, and you have to go in there thinking positive. Even if the last court hearing didn't go so well, you've got to go back into the next court hearing thinking this is a fresh start. Might even be the same judge, right, but you've got to go in there with a positive mindset from the beginning. And if things don't go so well for you, you've got to think right, okay, they've not gone so well, but what can I do now? How do I deal with it? How do I work around it? How do I make it better?
Tamsin Caine:
yeah, absolutely lavender spray. Lavender sprays are good
Caron Kipping:
Oh, I go through loads of lavender. Lavender, and another top tip is get a stress ball as well, you know or a makeup sponge or something that you can squeeze or fidget with Put it in your pocket. Nobody knows it's there. Right, If you start to feel a bit stressed, a bit emotional, just keep opening and closing your hand like that in your pocket, right?
Caron Kipping:
Nobody knows what's happening and the reason why you open and close your hand all the time is it distracts you all right from what's going on all right. It grounds your emotions a little bit because you're focusing on that. Open, close, open, close, open, close right, and it just takes the edge off okay, it's just a really simple thing that can just help that stop that overwhelm right yeah, but if you do get overwhelmed.
Caron Kipping:
You know you're a human being, you're not a robot. All right, just try to take a few deep breaths, right? Or have a glass of water. Just take a pause, take a minute and then get back on it yeah, absolutely a bit.
Tamsin Caine:
Meditation, potentially practice breathing, all those sorts of relaxation techniques are going to help put you in the right place because, as you say, frightening as it is, you do have one chance, and this is about trying to get this right for the rest of your life. If you're talking about finances, it's getting the right outcome for you and you want to fight calmly? Yeah, for all this? I think yeah, and we're coming to the end of our time together, sadly. It's been fabulous talking to you. Have you got anything you want to add before, before we go? Um?
Caron Kipping:
I suppose just to give people hope. All right. You know we talk about a lot of challenges and a lot of negatives. You know that come with leaving these relationships. They are not easy to leave. You know, people that are controlling do not give up that control easily. Of course they're not going to make it easy for you, right, but it is possible, okay. And if you're going through court, you know whatever happens you can deal with it Right. There is life afterwards. You can absolutely make a better life. You know you don't have to put up with this kind of behavior and there's no point thinking, oh, should I have stayed because it would have been better? No, it wouldn't. It would have just got worse over time. So you know, cut your losses, deal with it. You know it's a bit like ripping off a plaster. You just have to do it and be done with it and get yourself out the other side and then you can start healing, you can start rebuilding whatever that looks like absolutely and we are.
Tamsin Caine:
You know we've talked about post-separation abuse, but it is still better being away than than being in that relationship and that, absolutely, it is important.
Caron Kipping:
I've got lots of clients who you know still really struggle. But if you ask them you know what is would you prefer life now compared to what it was like before? 100 they would still have it now right rather than than how it was before, because even though there are difficult moments, they're just moments right, it's not constant, it's not all the time, and they use some strategies and they have some boundaries and things to try and make sure that that post-separation abuse still allows them to to get on with their life yeah, absolutely, karen.
Tamsin Caine:
Thank you so much for joining me today. Um, if you're struggling with anything that we've talked about today, there will be links and get hold of karen and we'll put the domestic abuse helpline link there. Just, please do reach out to somebody, because we know that there is. There is help out there. Um, but thank you for listening. Caron, thank you for joining me, and if you have found today's episode useful, please do give it a five star review, because it means that we can help more people and get these episodes out to more people who need them. So thank you very much, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the smart divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, www. smartdivorce. co. wwwsmartdivorcecouk also if you are listening on apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review.
Tamsin Caine:
That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a facebook group now. It's called separation, divorce and dissolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.