In this episode, Tamsin speaks to Laura Rosefield, who is a family consultant. They discuss how Laura works to support her clients in high conflict cases to achieve fair outcomes and how Laura works with those clients both during their meetings and outside them.
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Laura Rosefield
Laura says: "I always try to make sure that my clients can see the glimmer of promise at what the future holds. They know I will be by their side to help them put the building blocks in place to get there and at any time after the legal process is over. I will make sure that they have access to any specialist help they need. From my own experience, clients can see that there is light at the end of the darkness.”
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Member of Resolution - an organisation of professionals who believe in a constructive, non-confrontational approach to family law matters.
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Member of the Resolution Standards Committee and Working Together Group.
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Member of the Family Ambassadors Board of Support Through Court - a charity which provides assistance to people going through the family and civil courts without representation.
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Rosefield Divorce Consultancy is a member of Kids in the Middle – a charity comprised of family lawyers and mediators which aims to provide a voice for children when families split and an on-line resource for children to receive advice and support.
https://www.rosefielddivorceconsultancy.com
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
Transcript
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. This is series nine and in this series, we're going to explore what makes up the working week of various different professionals who work in the divorce world. You'll start to understand what they do, both during the time that you see them, how they prepare for meetings, and what work goes into the work of a divorce professional outside of the time that you spend with them. I'm really looking forward to some amazing clients in this series. We talked to a barrister, family solicitor, financial planner, divorce coach and really hoping that you're going to enjoy it and get a lot from it as well.
Tamsin Caine:
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Laura Rosefield, who I have been trying to get on this podcast for a very long time, but she's an insanely busy woman. She's also my co-chair on the Working Together Committee at Resolution, so this should be a brilliant chat. Now I'm going to let her introduce herself properly in terms of the work that she does. So welcome, Laura, lovely to have you along. Thank you, Tamsin.
Laura Rosefield:
Thank you, Tamsin, and so sorry it's taken so long.
Tamsin Caine:
Busy people that's the nature of the beast. So can you tell us a little bit about your current role and kind of what you've been doing up until this point?
Laura Rosefield:
Yeah, sure, so I am a divorce consultant. I set up my firm Rosefield Divorce Consultancy nearly 15 years ago now because I've been doing it for a long time and it arose really out of my own situation, which was a very difficult divorce, um, and I knew that I needed something. That didn't exist, um, so I basically set it up. So that's what I've been doing for 15 years. Um, I've been doing it on my own at RDC for that long, until a few weeks ago when I was joined by a partner. So that's very exciting news. So I've got now there are two of us doing very similar roles and basically for me I mean it's a hard role to put into a nutshell because it covers a lot of things and I wear a lot of hats but for me it's bringing together my legal background and expertise because I used to be a criminal barrister with sort of unlimited support on the emotional front, on the practical front, and basically drawing together the legal, the psychological, the practical, the financial, the welfare of the children, and trying to sort of project manage it all in one place.
Laura Rosefield:
I'm a big believer in family law needing to be strategized with an eye on the psychology of the situation. So that's, I think, probably what I focus most on, because I think you know this is all the law is. The law is fairly straightforward, isn't it? Apart from in in a few rare exceptional cases. What's difficult is you're dealing with people and personalities and you are tasked by your client with getting them from A to whichever letter they want to end up at, and you've got to work out strategically what the best way of getting them there is. So that's me combining the law and the psychology, providing a bridge between the client and the solicitor or the legal team, because I talk both languages, I've been both, I've been a lawyer and I've been the client and they are very different languages and sometimes they need a bit of bridging and interpretation, and I sit on the client's shoulder, basically, and just walk in their shoes. But from an objective point of view, I don't know if that makes sense.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, it does. I'm interested to hear a bit more about how you deal with divorce from a psychological perspective, because that sounds, I think, very straightforward to you and very confusing to other people.
Laura Rosefield:
So I think the best example of that is my sort of day in, day out bread and butter cases, which are the very high conflict cases, often where there's a high conflict personality on one or both sides and often where there's been some domestic abuse involved. So the law is pretty much the same. You know it's a blunt instrument. It doesn't have the nuance necessarily that we would want it to. The people who practice it and implement it, ie the judges and court advisors, like Kafka, don't necessarily have the time to spend on the nuances of a case. So what makes each case different is that personality both my client and the client on the other side, or the individual on the other side. So I have to think about how best to first of all take my client through so he or she is as unscathed as possible from the experience, but also and equally focused is on the outcome for my client. So I want him or her to get to a certain point.
Laura Rosefield:
And how you do that is all about negotiating with people. So you know what's going to be a red rag to a bull. What's going to be calming to the person on the other side calming and reassuring. Be calming to the person on the other side. Calming and reassuring. What's going to help the person on the other side understand that we're not trying to rip the life from under them or take their kids away from them or, you know, sell the house from under their feet. We're just trying to come to a solution that works best for the family.
Laura Rosefield:
Does that help a bit, I mean the hyper personality psychology is quite in depth and I've been doing it for so long. You know you recognize them coming a mile off by now. But that's kind of it's all about judgment and gut feel. And when you've been doing it for so long you start, you know, you develop that quite sharply over time. But I do say to my clients there's no right or wrong with this. Very rarely in family law is there a right or wrong. Sometimes, of course, but rarely, and usually it's about going with the judgment that you're feeling because you know the personality of your client and the other person really very well, by the time you've done a few months on their case.
Tamsin Caine:
because from what you've said, it sounds like you're quite often working with them as well as being on on perhaps the other side. That must be. That's a tricky thing to to deal with. It's high conflict personalities are very difficult to navigate, whether you're with them or I don't want to say against, because it shouldn't be against, but but on on the other side from
Laura Rosefield:
I, you know, even with high conflict personalities on my side, although, I agree, we don't want to use that terminology, but you know what I mean. It's all about trust. So I think you know even challenging personalities. When they gain your trust and you gain theirs, and they know that you are, you've got their back. Things rub along much more easily and things you're right. Things flare up and they can be difficult and then it's a matter of protecting myself ourselves. But you know, when they gain your trust, they will hear object, objective messages from you. Um, and that's that's my goal is to make them realize so um deeply, that I actually have got their back, um, that when I say something that they don't want to hear, they do take it.
Tamsin Caine:
No, that's really important. So somebody listening to this think okay, I've got an ex-spouse or a soon-to-be ex-spouse who has high conflict personality. This whole process feels like a minefield. I really want a Laura on my side to help me through this. What can they expect when they come to see you?
Laura Rosefield:
Well, I think the first thing that they can expect is to have no how should I put this? No shame highlighted for not being able to do things nicely. So this is something I feel quite strongly about. There is a wealth of options out there for clients who want to do things amicably, and so there should be. That's absolutely right, and so we should be gently nudging people as far as we can in the direction of doing divorce better. But there are some people for whom that is impossible, and I feel quite strongly that there is a dearth of options out there for people who can't manage it for whatever reason. I mean often in my cases it is because there's some high conflict, personality involved and or abuse, and I'm very keen that those people don't feel shame and embarrassment and like they failed because they're having to go through litigation, whereas we're all told that we should do this through mediation and other alternative dispute mechanisms. So that's the first thing. The next thing is they will have someone constantly sitting on their shoulder, as I said. So I will fill whatever gap they need, and with some people it's more emotional, with some people it's more practical.
Laura Rosefield:
With a lot of them there is a lot of legal involvement. So I become most of the time quite an important part of the legal team. So I'm copied into all the correspondence. I tend to go to conferences with counsel. I often go to court and I will help with writing statements. I will help with correspondence between the co-parents and basically I will be sort of part of the setting of the strategy that then gets executed by whoever it is on the team that needs to do it, whether it's you guys, financial advisors, whether it's the client herself or himself writing co-parenting emails, or whether it's the solicitor writing letters to court or writing statements. So it's sort of filling the gap. But seeing it from a place sitting in the client's shoes, which is a role that the solicitor doesn't do I mean that that's not their job, um. But actually when you're a client feeling terribly vulnerable and terribly anxious, having someone sitting there and being in your corner, I think can be very helpful.
Tamsin Caine:
I just want to come back to the um, the shame thing of of um, of not sorting out divorce amicably. I like I'm a massive advocate for trying, if you can, to sort out divorce amicably. But you're absolutely right, it's not, it's not always possible and it means it takes two. So even if you want to, if your ex doesn't, you haven't got hope. And I kind of this down. It's going to sound a really weird analogy, but I am liken it to breastfeeding right, because when I had my tiny babies it wasn't, it wasn't possible, the very various reasons that it wasn't possible, but it wasn't possible, and there's a huge guilt put on you if you can't do it. And I think it's a really similar, similar thing with I'm a couple divorce and it's like, if you can, if both of you want to, it is absolutely the best thing for the family. But it's not always possible and you just can't beat yourself up about it. I've tried, I try with my clients, but it's not always possible. Sometimes it has to go to court
Laura Rosefield:
And you can't just dump those people. You can't just dump them and say, okay, knives out, then guns out, let's get a nuclear bomb while we're at it and just blow the whole thing up. Even litigation can be managed well and sensitively and strategically. And you know, one of the things I talk a lot about is responding and not reacting. You know all of those lessons apply just as much to whether you find yourself in litigation, which nobody wants. You know, protecting the children just because you are in litigation doesn't mean your children are going to be ruined. There's a, there's a lot of this talk of. You know, the fear of God is put into people about what you're doing to your children if you can't sort this out amicably. I mean that is such a dreadful burden to place on people who are already terrified about how their children are going to cope. They'll be okay if we manage it better.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, no, absolutely. I so agree with that. I think that there are things that you can do as an individual when you're going through divorce to not impact your children. Things like don't massively criticize the other person in front of them, don't stop all conversations about family times that you had between you before. Don't like those, those sorts of things, those that stuff's really important. Don't put them in the middle and say tell your mum this or tell your dad this. Don't like those things that you can. You can do and manage, but if you need to go to court to sort it out, that's what you need to do.
Laura Rosefield:
Sometimes. This is another answer to your question on the psychology. Sometimes the sooner you make the decision about court, the better. So one of the things going back to that question that you asked is identifying the psychology of the situation, of the relationship and possibly of the individual parties, and going is this going to be sorted out of court? We'll have a bash, but actually we know which direction this is heading in. So let's not make things worse, let's not draw things out, because drawing things out always makes things worse, and let's not spend the fortune on banging our head against a brick wall by the end of which the clients are exhausted, even more across with each other and even more entrenched in their positions. Let's be realistic. Let's make an application and we'll deal with it, but we'll manage the litigation well.
Laura Rosefield:
And the other thing I just want to pick up on your advice for how to protect children, which, of course, is absolutely right. All of those things are crucial, but, um, they're easy to say, aren't they? We both know they're easy to say. They're harder to execute. Sometimes one needs support and and direction into how best to protect children when you are overwrought with your own emotion, one of the other things I always say to my clients is you, do you, as far as the kids are concerned, in that, just be the best parent you can, so that the kids know that they have at least, hopefully two, but at least one stable, sane parent that they can entirely trust and rely on. Um and I. I think that's absolutely crucial. People spend a lot of time worrying and obsessing over what the other person is doing and actually much more important what you're doing
Tamsin Caine:
I think that's absolutely spot on. So we've got a client. They come to see you for the first time, or have a team teams call. However you do it, you've got a first meeting. So what? What does that look like?
Laura Rosefield:
so it it somewhat depends on how the clients come to me. About 50% come to me through solicitors or barristers and the rest from other sources. So if they've come from a solicitor, I tend to know a bit about the backgrounds and I know what the solicitor wants me to work on with them, and so this first meeting can be a little bit more targeted. Sometimes clients come to me completely cold. I don't know. I might know one sentence. They might have written to me saying I want to get a divorce and that's it. So a first meeting is generally quite long and intense, where we'll talk all about the background, and I always make it clear that the background actually, probably for legal purposes, is not so significant. But for psychological purposes, for understanding where we're going with this case, which best of the various options to pick for process, which lawyer you should go. To all of those things the background is crucial. You have to get into the nitty gritty and understand the personalities. So we'll talk through all of that. I then talk to them about the shape that's my word the shape of the process, because I think it's really important to understand from A to Z and everything in between in terms of the direction of travel, because if you only see in front of the next step, in front of your nose, I think it causes huge anxiety. It also means that you don't understand why you're doing things. When your lawyer tells you to express something in a certain way, or write a certain letter, or not write a certain letter, which is more to the point, it's very difficult to understand why that advice is being given if you don't have a sense of the overall shape and the way that things are decided. So I go through that at the beginning and I always say to my clients you know, you you won't remember of it, but I'm going to draw you a diagram. We draw some pretty pictures so that they get on one sheet of paper, they get the whole thing in one hit. And then we make a plan and that's the most important part of the meeting and that plan can range from which lawyer you should see, can range from which lawyer you should see whether we need to see counsel as well, whether you need to see a financial advisor at this stage and as you know, tamsin, I'm a big fan and doing that early, very importantly whether you need therapy.
Laura Rosefield:
I work very closely with therapists and I'm a big believer in them being an integral part of the team. Therapists, um, and I'm a big believer in them being an integral part of the team. Um and um. Then, how we're going to approach the the person on the other side, you know are we? Are we going to sit down and have a chat? Are we going to write a letter? Um, is there some joint therapy going on at the moment? Where we can, we can use a session to say something difficult, um, and then we will make a plan, more from a legal perspective as well, what we want to achieve and how best to get there. And I'm doing about half and half children work and finance work, so often in the first meeting we'll have to talk about both.
Tamsin Caine:
Wow, that's a lot. So when you say a long meeting, that sounds like a good few hours say a long meeting, that sounds like a good few hours.
Laura Rosefield:
It's usually between one and two. Right, it depends, and my bit of explaining everything doesn't take long. The bit that takes a long time is um extracting the information about what's happened and and what's what the personalities are yeah, yeah, absolutely okay.
Tamsin Caine:
And then it sounds to me as though you work with your clients from early on in the process, even if they've come to you from solicitors all the way through until they get to the resolution of the children or financial part, or both, if, if they're both necessary. Do you work on past that, or is that? Does that, is that right? Very much past that?
Laura Rosefield:
I mean, I'm trying to think what's my longest. I think my longest at the moment is about 10 years
Tamsin Caine:
Well, not necessarily that case.
Laura Rosefield:
But the children can obviously be very young when the separation happens and if that's the case and if it's a difficult relationship, particularly with the high conflict and all the abuse, that co-parenting necessity is going to be around for about 10, 15 years. I mean that's the reality of it. And there are people, as you say, that need ongoing help. It might be daily help, it might be touching base once a month, it might be once a year. Something explodes and they need help managing that. But definitely the relationship continues well beyond the end of the resolution, of whatever order they're getting, um, and and often beyond the end of lawyers involvement, because that tends to be a little bit more transactional
Tamsin Caine:
And I've definitely got clients that I'm working with who who's without wanting to spook anyone who's who have continuing um issues and and need to go to court and need for support, usually from the children's side, but but very occasionally from the financial side, if they've not been able to achieve a clean break and and the kind of ongoing need for the other person to pay, and they're not necessarily in all those sorts of things
Laura Rosefield:
You know, an email will land in their inbox and they weren't expecting it and suddenly the whole world's blown apart again. So, yeah, definitely, but I think the really sort of exhausting aspect of it is the children front. It's the managing, the daily. You know the gym kit comes back dirty, the lunchbox hasn't been packed, you know the kids were brought back half an hour late and I didn't know where they were. All of that stuff is terribly difficult to manage on a daily basis with someone that you have had a very difficult relationship with. Um, and, yeah, I, I do involve myself with that quite a bit
Tamsin Caine:
That's amazing. , clearly we do. I think the problem is we're just so busy, aren't we? So you've got your kind of meetings with the clients and the bits that you do with them, and obviously you're speaking to solicitors. What other work is? I'm thinking of what the clients won't see, rather than what the people who you work with will see. What are the things do you get involved in that that they perhaps don't see on a on a daily, weekly basis?
Laura Rosefield:
Tamsin I can. I commit the cardinal sin of of when you're giving evidence in court and not answer your question because I just want, I want to. I remember something from your last question that I wanted to mention, when you were saying you get involved from the beginning to the end. The other sort of flashpoint where I do have some involvement is pre-court, just pre-court, pre-final hearing. Oh, okay, because obviously I used to be a barrister, so I've done cross examinations day in, day out, and I will sometimes be asked to do what's called what we call witness familiarization sessions. Right, and very much not coaching. We're not allowed to coach, no, but it's about just familiarizing the client with the court process, the court day. What does cross examinationexamination mean? How is it different from when your own barrister is asking you questions and all of that stuff? It's a huge anxiety giving evidence at a final hearing, and so I really like that part of my role actually, because I think you can sort of see the anxiety dripping off them and then it gradually falls away. So I think that's quite important and I don't need to have had a long term relationship with the client to come to sort of be parachuted in for that.
Laura Rosefield:
But in terms of what else I do. To now answer your question, I mean a lot of the work I do. The Rosefields Girls Consultancy work is client facing almost all of it. But then of course, there's a lot going on in the background in terms of the relationships with the solicitors, the relationships with the therapists. Even with you guys I work quite closely, um, and there's a lot of talk all the time, constant, constant, constant. A lot of whatsapps backwards and forwards, middle of the night, you know, because I tend to work as a very close team with the solicitors and barristers and therapists and financial advisors that I know and trust, um, so we're pinging each other, constantly, throwing ideas around. That's part of why I'm such a passionate believer in our thing in the team, which is what our Resolution Committee is all about, because one person's pair of eyes and one person's brain is never as good as having two or three people with a different perspective on it.
Laura Rosefield:
And when you work with people who are open to other takes and other ideas, the client's experience just goes like that yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's not, and and not only the client's experience, but the outcome really, yeah, yeah, much better, because you know you might say something. Have you thought about the way this offer is structured? It might, you know it doesn't take care of this and we'll go? Oh god, no, we didn't. We didn't see that because we were looking at it with our, with our eyes, and now it's opened up this whole thing that we need to deal with.
Laura Rosefield:
But how amazing that the client has those different perspectives. So I think there's a lot that the client doesn't see of chatter between the different professionals on a case. And then there's a little bit of, you know, the resolution work that we do that's trying to build a generally better picture for clients going forward. I sit on a domestic abuse charity which sorry, the board of a domestic abuse charity, which at the board sorry, the board of a domestic abuse charity, which I find very helpful in terms of reminding me of what these people are going through um and um. I do a little bit of training on how to divorce narcissists and other high conflict personalities, but it's all really about keeping up to date in terms of being able to pass on the knowledge to the clients yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
I think we all do a lot of that. Keeping up to date piece that sometimes you do it without even thinking about it. You know I'll sit on Twitter of an evening looking at posts and reading latest um court decisions.
Laura Rosefield:
That's where you learn from I can. I completely don't have to sit and read encyclopedias anymore. That's, that's the beauty of it. None of us have the attention span for that anymore.
Laura Rosefield:
Um, so yeah, there's a lot of that, and the other thing is there's a lot of that, and the other thing is that there's a lot of thinking, a lot of thinking time, and that happens in the shower, while you're chopping the vegetables, while you're taking the dog for a walk. My thing is, it happens whenever I go to concerts because I love music. So as soon as I sit down and my brain switches off, a genius idea will come to me about how to unlock a particularly knotty case or a knotty issue.
Tamsin Caine:
Um, so that there's a lot of thinking that goes on behind the scenes that the clients don't necessarily see yeah, and with your mind's, the shower, but it's often, often in the shower, or I like hiking, so on the top of a hill somewhere, you, you do. The best time for thinking it is when you're not trying to think.
Tamsin Caine:
I think it feels like a random thing to say, but I completely agree in terms of the the team working ethos that you have and that I know we both very strongly believe in, a lot of people listening will be thinking well, that sounds incredibly expensive to have all of those different people involved. Is your experience that is considerably more expensive? Or would you say, or is it your experience that perhaps because you've got a team working with you doing the bits that they should be doing, rather than using a solicitor as a therapist, that actually it doesn't cost more than than it would otherwise?
Laura Rosefield:
I completely agree with the latter, that that I mean that one of the purposes of me is to save money. That that was when, when I started um this, whenever it was coming up 15 years ago, that was one of my two limbs that I promised myself I would try and help clients with. So I've seriously failed. If things become more expensive. So I work very hard to make them not agree with you. Having people wear the hat that they are meant to wear tends to be a lot cheaper.
Laura Rosefield:
The example that's always given is don't use your lawyer as a therapist, but it's a good example. Lawyers are expensive and they are not therapists, so they're not the best person for that job. And the same with you. They are not the best person to do the financial side of things, the analysis and the strategy on that front. Same with Form Z, for example. So definitely picking the right person to do the right job has an effect of saving you money. Often, you know the other professionals that sit with us on our committee end up being cheaper than lawyers. So that's something to remember.
Laura Rosefield:
But the other thing to remember is and this is something I'm equally passionate about as well as the team thing is that you can pick and mix a bespoke approach for your divorce. So you don't have to have, when we say, the team, you don't have to have 700 people working on your case from minute A to minute, 7 million. They come in and they come out when needed, and sometimes you only need a light touch. Sometimes you need for example, in my case, maybe you do a first meeting, you set the strategy, you pick and choose what you're going to do, you work out how to frame it for the other side and the client is off and they never need to speak to you again. Or maybe they touch base for three minutes six months later. That's all that's necessary.
Laura Rosefield:
So with people like us, it's a pay-as-you-go system, isn't it? You don't need to be signing on the dotted line and then committing to these huge amounts of fees. So it really is about what the particular client needs and making sure that the right person for that job is doing it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're on the hook for, for you know, hours, hours involvement, and I feel quite strongly about that because I'm not. I'm not sure if people necessarily know that. What do you think?
Tamsin Caine:
no, I think it's. I think it depends on the person, doesn't it? And I know I've been speaking um? I was back to Claire Macklin a couple of weeks ago and um recently launched her episode and she was saying you know, they it depends. Even working with her, who's a divorce coach, you know she has a way of working with her clients. It's not a forever thing, but with some clients it's not necessary to do six months worth or six weeks worth or whatever. It is as and when and what you need. So I think you're right. I think it's picking the right people for the right jobs, but also at the right time and having them involved when they're when they're needed, not necessarily all the way through.
Laura Rosefield:
Yeah, exactly, and I mean I, unlike most coaches, I think I don't work in sessions at all. So really, if you need three minutes, you pay for three minutes. That's it, um and um. You know, I think that's reassuring, because sometimes all it needs is can you just look at this email. I just am I right about the my response? I've done a draft. Do you think it's okay? Probably takes three or four minutes and yet the client then goes okay, yeah, I know I'm on track and that's a very inexpensive way of working. Yeah, absolutely Very time and cost efficient.
Laura Rosefield:
And the other thing is another amazing development in family law is that there are lots of flexible ways of working. There's unbundling with the solicitors. There's direct access with the barristers, which I'm a massive advocate of. What else is there? Um, oh, I do some work with, uh, another divorce consultant where we just we're we're the only two people on the case, there aren't solicitors or anyone else involved um, and we just sort it out between us and it's terribly cost effective yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think this will happen more and more.
Tamsin Caine:
I think that lots of people working in family justice are trying to develop new ways of working and trying to help their clients in the best possible way. There are so many options out there now to resolve your case in court, out of court and it's, but I think it's getting word out to the, to the general public and the people who actually need it, that you don't have to. You don't have to go straight to a lawyer. You don't have to go straight to court, but you need to pick the best of all of the options that are out there for you in your circumstances and and what you know.
Laura Rosefield:
Answering your first question about what I do, you know very much the sort of I don't know concierge service or you know someone sitting above who knows all of those options and connect them but can sort of guide you in the right direction, because I think you know, it's difficult. It's easier for us to see, isn't it as an outsider? With some independence and objectivity. What a case needs? When you're in it, it's impossible.
Tamsin Caine:
I mean it's it's so difficult.
Laura Rosefield:
And then you add the anxiety and you just you're seeing and thinking straight becomes very hard absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:
This is something that probably should have asked you ages ago. But do you work with anybody or I know we've talked about Kate generally working in high conflict cases? Generally you're working with people where there's some abuse, but do they have to be kind of high net worth, ultra high net worth? Do you work with I don't like the phrase ordinary people, but you know what I mean. Is there a kind of, is there a line where you go? Do you know what to work with me? If I'm going to look at your situation, I'm going to say that you need X, y, I don't know. There are certain things that you look for before you take them on as a client.
Laura Rosefield:
The complete opposite, because of the sort of pay-as-you-go system which I never thought. A client used that phrase of me two weeks ago and I've used it back when I've been doing this for so long. I've never thought of it like that, but it's true you just pay for what you use, so it's. It's, in fact, a really good model when there isn't much money around. I thought your question made me think of someone a few years ago who I had. I won't say too much about who he was, but he had nothing, really nothing. He was begging, borrowing and almost stealing to pay for a second and we fixed it In the session together. We wrote three messages that he was going to send out like this, staggered because we knew what the response was going to be each time and that was it. That was all he needed, and I think that happens quite a lot.
Laura Rosefield:
The model where I um sort things out with with this other divorce consultant that I work closely with very inexpensive way of doing things. I mean we, we did a case recently and it was minimal fees um, which I think probably I don't know how much it would have been with lawyers, but a lot, a lot, lot more um and the same with the direct access, but definitely you. I think, first, meetings are a very valuable way of setting people off on the right, on the right track, um. And then, of course, you know there's all pro bono options as well, because when you're doing this kind of work, there's some, some cases that you feel you have to do because someone is suffering or struggling so much. So I definitely don't think it's only for high net worth. In fact, it works brilliantly for the opposite end of the scale.
Tamsin Caine:
Just something that came to mind while you were talking, when you're working with the other divorce consultant and sorting things out between are you able to write draft the financial consent order, or does that still need to then go through a lawyer? Um?
Laura Rosefield:
I, I don't I always ask them to get a lawyer to do it. Yeah, um, and again, we work with people that that will do that for minimal. Yeah, my view is it's too important to take any risks and I want it done absolutely properly.
Tamsin Caine:
I absolutely agree. I wondered about, with your legal background, whether you went down that route.
Laura Rosefield:
I was a criminal barrister, so I didn't grow up in family law. So everything I've learned from the job and you know I'm a big fan of knowing where your skills lie and I don't. I don't want to do that, so I don't. I think some, some people in my position, maybe do, but that's not something I do.
Tamsin Caine:
Yeah, no fair enough, we're coming to the end of our time together, believe it or not. I just wondered if there was anything that I haven't asked you that you feel like would be important to get across, or that you want to add to what you've said so far.
Laura Rosefield:
I think the only thing I would say is that, um, I am living proof that things get better and get a lot better. You are too, I think, but I think that that's powerful. So, even when you're working with clients on the nitty-gritty, there's this overwhelming sense that it's gonna. It's gonna get better, and not only better. It's gonna be exciting, joyful, calm, peaceful, and I think, having been through it, don't know if you agree, but it's helpful to be able to reassure clients that the feelings will pass, that they're normal.
Laura Rosefield:
You know, I have one phrase I call the tsunami of exhaustion, which I'm sure you're familiar with, where it's just, you know, after a bad letter comes, or after a court hearing or a conference with counsel or something you cannot move, um and you're, you're so tired you think there's something wrong with you, and just being able to say it's the tsunami of exhaustion, by about Thursday you'll be up and about again and and having that being proved right, I think that that's so nice and I I always want to leave my clients with the feeling that, in time, there will be relief from this.
Tamsin Caine:
That's a beautiful way to end this conversation. Laura, thank you so much for joining me. That's been an absolutely fascinating conversation and I'm hoping lots of people will listen and pick up the phone or contact you by email. All Laura's details will be in the show notes, so if you do want to reach out to her, you will be able to, and also, obviously, check out her website as well. Hope you join us again next time.
Tamsin Caine:
If you have enjoyed this episode, please do think about giving us a lovely five-star review and we'll catch up with you soon. Us a lovely five-star review and we'll catch up with you soon. Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.