Your Vision for Your Divorce

In today’s episode, Tamsin Caine is joined by divorce coaches Julia Moreno and Sally Jackson. We explore a profound and empowering question: Who do you want to be during your divorce? We'll discuss how you can establish a vision for your divorce, cultivate your best self, and navigate this journey with integrity and grace.

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And one of the team will be in touch.”

Sally Jackson

Sally is a divorce coach who specialises in enabling divorcing professional midlife women to gain clarity, make empowered decisions, and take courageous action, saving them time, money and stress.

Julia Moreno

Julia is a divorce coach and family law solicitor with a mission to offer individuals and couples a kinder and better journey in their separation and divorce, taking into consideration the wellbeing and needs of the family.

Sally and Julia have joined forces as founders of the Reclaim Your Life Retreat, specifically created to empower and positively transform women experiencing separation and divorce.

https://sallyjacksoncoaching.com/

https://www.juliamoreno.co.uk/

https://bit.ly/reclaimyourliferetreat

Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/

Transcript

in today's episode of the Smart Divorce podcast, I am joined by Sally Jackson and Julia Moreno. Both of them are divorce coaches and they've joined together to create a fabulous retreat. I'm going to be talking to them today about having a vision of what you would like to happen during your divorce and how you would like to feel after your divorce. It's a fascinating conversation. I really hope you enjoy it and get a lot from it, and if you are interested in joining their retreat, the details are in the show notes.

Let's jump right in the details are in the show notes. Let's jump right in. Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. I'm so happy to be joined today by divorce coaches Sally Jackson and Julia Moreno. Sally is a divorce coach who specialises in enabling divorcing professional midlife women to gain clarity, making empowered decisions and taking courageous action, saving them time, money and stress. I love the idea of courageous action. That is a fabulous thing.

Julia Moreno is a divorce coach and family law solicitor with a mission to offer individuals and couples a kinder and better journey in their separation and divorce, taking into consideration the wellbeing needs of the family, which is something that's incredibly close to my heart. Sally and Julia have joined forces recently as the founders of Reclaim your Life retreat, which I'm really hoping they're going to tell you a bit about as well before we finish this episode. This retreat was specifically created to empower and positively transform women experiencing separation and divorce, and today we are going to talk about who you want to be during your divorce, so I'll open this up to both of you. I'll open this up to both of you. So we're going to talk about having a vision for your divorce. So why is it beneficial to establish a vision for your divorce?

Oh, I'm happy to start. First of all, thank you, Tamsin, for having us here. And in answer to your question, why is it beneficial? It's because a vision serves as a compass. It's what keeps you on track, guiding your decisions and actions towards your desired outcome.

Without a vision, it's easy to behave impulsively and potentially cause more harm than good, like anger or revenge, without taking into consideration the implications of their current actions.

It is helpful to ask yourself questions like how do I want to feel at the end of the divorce process, divorce process what type of divorce do I want?

What kind of relationship do I want to have with my former spouse partner after the divorce? Let's take this last question and, for instance, if you have a vision that you wish to maintain a positive co-parenting relationship, you are more likely to steer your actions in that direction. You are not just winging it. You are making deliberate choices, heated moment, you pause and take a moment to breathe and think, so that you are responding rather than reacting. Or you try to be mindful of your communication, watching your tone, your body language or your words, and finding ways to work together, especially if children are involved. In the middle of the complexities of divorce, establishing a vision provides three things Clarity, direction and a sense of purpose. As I've said before, it's your compass, guiding you through the toughest times and keeping you in line with what really matters your goals, which you could be, you could call them intentions or objectives, if you prefer and also your priorities.

I love that. I love the idea of creating a vision for your divorce. It sounds incredibly difficult to do in a heightened emotional state. How on earth do you get people who are in a revenge mindset or, as I say, highly heightened emotional state to even start to think about their vision? Sally, what do you think about that?

It's almost like a step before that for me. So if you don't feel that you are worth it, if you don't believe that you deserve, then it doesn't matter how much you design a vision, you're not going to buy into it. So if that voice in your head is saying to you, or even if your actions are saying to you so let's say, you're doing everything for your children and you're ignoring your own needs, you're telling yourself you don't have time to meet a friend for a walk and you are grabbing a packet of crisps and a glass of wine because you don't have time to prepare yourself dinner, or you're too exhausted, or you're just absolutely on the floor in terms of distress. That gives a really strong message I don't matter, I'm not important.

And so for me, it's absolutely crucial to work on identifying what your needs are. So what do you need Not to be great, but to be okay, and what needs to be in place for you to make that happen? So I would always start with my clients, with you know, down to those real basics of how much time do you need alone? How much time do you need with friends? How much time do you need alone? How much time do you need with friends, how much sleep do you need, what exercise do you need? And actually making a plan to get that in place. So you are honoring yourself, and when you've done that, then you'll be ready to start working on your vision. So for me, until that's in place, you, you can't really work on a vision yeah, no, I was gonna say I totally agree that she's absolutely right.

You need to reach that stage of accepting that that you matter, and then, uh, you can move on to establish your, your vision and I think, answering your back to your question, tamsin once you have reached that stage that Sally has talked about, you start with deep reflection and self-discovery.

You have to take some time to reflect on what matters most to you, what is most important, and you have to think about your values, your priorities for yourself and your family, your non-negotiables.

It is much, much easier to set your vision when you have given yourself the space to think about this, to think about this, and you could start by something simple like writing a daily journal, which will help you and will begin to elicit what's important to you. You may also want to start thinking about your desired outcome, what you want to achieve and, as Sally said, what your needs are, and also considering the needs of your family and what is okay and what is not okay, and how you are going to communicate that. Are you going to do it in a respectful way that clearly states what your wishes, what your needs are, and then trying to find ways to work together to achieve it. For example, I had a client that when she made the decision to divorce, she was absolutely clear that she wanted to prioritise her children's wellbeing above all else, and that's something quite common with many clients, because they are conscious of the impact that the divorce can have on their children.

So this client she wanted them to feel loved and supported throughout the process, regardless of positive and healthier environment for herself and her family. Going back to what you were saying, emotional, you know the whirlwind of emotions, absolutely. They can cloud your judgment. So that's about well in my mind. That's about well in my mind. That's about working with a coach, because it really is about learning what those emotions mean and how sometimes we cover one emotion with another.

So, for example, we might have grown up with the idea that anger is not a good thing and therefore we're not actually allowing ourselves to express that anger ourselves, to express that anger. So if you can work with a coach who can hold you in that anger, can actually give you that space to feel safe to express it, then that obviously is going to be very, very helpful. And of course, you know there are ways to. There are things you can do to process your emotions and becoming aware of what emotional state you're in and also what the emotions mean. I mean anger usually means someone's crossed a boundary, it's a warning sign. It's saying hang on a second, I want to be heard. So learning those kinds of things I think you know what we're really talking about here is divorce is a huge personal development journey when you get it right, you know, you learn to deal with all these things that perhaps through most of your life you've actually avoided yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

I think I think that's spot on. I think that um certainly clients that that I've worked with you do tend to find that there's one person who is emotionally ready for divorce and quite often the person who's made that decision and the other is way, way off on that emotional journey and they almost need to so that you can redress the balance so that sensible decisions can be made. You kind of got to, so that you can redress the balance so that sensible decisions can be made. You kind of got to get that under control before you can start process, before you can start making the decisions, before you can start even thinking about what you want to be like and and all those things. I think I think that that has to, has to come back. But something that that you were saying about um, about children, about putting them first, about um, about giving yourself the space and and having the self-worth for yourself.

My experience as a mother would be that we tend to and and I'm not disrespecting dads in this in any way, because there are some wonderful fathers who who do exactly the same thing, but I do feel that it's more perhaps of a female trait is that you do put your children first. You know it doesn't matter whether they're tiny babies or whether they're much older. The responsibility for for them because you grow them inside you as a mother is that they come first and absolutely. Whilst, yes, you need to have self-worth, it's it's a massive trip to go from that to to giving yourself time, to prioritizing. You know it's like put your own oxygen mask on first, and we know how important that is, but actually being able to do it is massively important and can stop you from making poor decisions based upon you putting the kids first and not prioritising yourself. That's something you obviously find in your work, sally, from what you said.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I see it more with older teenagers and adult children and actually sometimes you know guilt tripping their parents um. So you know I've seen it with um. You know, mum, you're not going to um, you know you're not going to take dad's pension, are you? You know that kind of. So you know it goes both ways. It's it's as a mum we do all these things, but also then the children feel torn um. So that's where having this vision can be so helpful. You know it really can just give you that, that track to keep on on path. Yeah, absolutely.

I totally agree. So how? Let's assume we've got ourselves in a good space emotionally. We're ready to create this vision. How do you go about defining a vision, julia?

for it's about thinking about what's important to you, and you have to start with thinking about your values, your priorities, what's your desired outcome, what you need, and also you need to take into consideration whether, once you have established that vision, is thinking about okay, am I going to find any obstacles?

And cannot deny that no doubt, throughout the process, there will be challenges, and those challenges most likely are going to require patience and resilience and a willingness from you to adapt as you work towards achieving that vision. And it's, it's, uh, so um, you, you can work on that vision yourself, or you can, depending on your emotional state, you may want to have the support of, of a professional, uh, of a divorce coach like ourselves. And it's about asking the right questions to help you to get there. And at the start, I mentioned a few helpful questions like how do you want to feel after this is over? What kind of relationship you want to have? How do you want you to yourself to remember this process in the future? How do you want your children to remember it? Uh, it's, it's things like that.

And also I think that, um, visioning isn't just you know, you do do it at the start and and you have that vision and then obviously you adjust as situations change and things, but also you can vision for aspects of your divorce. So I've got one client, for example, who was just about to sack a lawyer and I just said, well, let's just step back a bit, let's just, you know, actually, just because that's what happens when you're going through divorce. You've never most of us have never been through divorce before. We could. You know, we feel completely out of control, we're second guessing ourselves, we're taking advice from everyone we can think of, and this is what has happened. Somebody had said to her I don't think you're getting good advice. Bang, she was gonna, she was gonna.

So so what we did was we went OK. So let's just vision. What does your lawyer look like? Who do they need to be? And then we had the criteria of I need to be able to afford them, I need to be able to tell them what I need, I need to know that they understand my case, I need to know that they're good at their job. And then we were able to go OK. So if that's your vision. Then what evidence is there with your current lawyer that they're actually doing that? And sure enough, the evidence was there and we were able to say, ok, fine, so stick with your lawyer. But if you haven't got that person just saying stop breathe, hang on a minute, we need to look at a vision here. Just saying stop breathe, hang on a minute, we need to look at a vision here. We need to just step back a bit. So it's not even just about the whole thing, it can be about small sections.

I like that there's so much everybody else wanting to hail advice at you during the divorce process, the man down the pub says, oh well, well, I got a much better settlement than on the table for you, forgetting that actually their situation is completely different. Your situation, and therefore why would you end up with the same settlement where the process is is so very different? Uh, you know almost all of my clients. Uh, one situation is different from all of the others, you know. So why would you end up with the same settlement as somebody else? It just makes no sense, correct.

Yeah, Because they only think about the assets and the income. But there are other factors that are taken into consideration the age, how many children they have, their standard of living, earning capacities and, as you rightly say, every single case is different.

I've got one client who, her brother, is a corporate lawyer, and we got a very clear intention that she wanted a fair financial settlement. And then he was like, let's go for it. Let's, you know, let's win at all costs. Let's, you know, get as much as we can.

And I had to kind of say to her well, have things changed? Because that wasn't where you started, you know. And so, just coming back to that vision again of just so helpful I'm interested in and it's something that has crossed my path many, many times over the last few years that I've been doing this work is having a vision yourself of what you want to feel after the divorce and what you're looking for from the divorce process for it to be fair and equitable, not equal. Equitable is wonderful, but what if the other party is up for a fight and a day in court and has completely different values and mindset to you and wants to be able to tell their story to a judge and say what a bad person you are, etc. How can the vision help you deal with that situation where the other party is paramount opposite to you?

it's quite, it's quite common, uh, uh for, uh for there to be some conflict or tension between a couple. And if you find yourself in that situation that you described, it can really complicate things when you are trying to follow your vision and trying to walk together. So, although you still have your vision, so, although you still have your vision, you need to try to be constructive and try to find compromise while staying true to your core objectives, provided that your own expectations are also fair and reasonable. And that's why you should have advice as well from an expert, from a lawyer, as to what are your rights and entitlements, so that, also within your vision, you are not pursuing something that is not equitable or fair.

And sometimes, when you find yourself in these situations, aside from having the assistance of emotional management and using tools to manage any conflict, how to reduce it and to have better communication, sometimes you need to take the lead role. One person needs to lead by example and set a tone of cooperation for the other to follow, because your behavior can significantly impact the outcome, and it's about if you demonstrate your best self and you act in ways that reflect reflect your dignified vision in the face of adversity, then you're going to feel much better and yes, there will be. When you're dealing with someone who is not cooperating, being difficult, and so on, the most you can do is to act in accordance with your values and seek the help. Be your best self and seek the help from others, because you are only in control of your own behaviour, of your own words and your own actions. You are not in control of what the other does or say, but the best you can do is to be a role model and be your best self.

And ask yourself you know, in five years' time, how do I want to look back on this, how do I want my children to look back on this? Keep the big picture in your vision.

Yeah, that's really good advice, because you are only in control of what you do. You can't control the behavior of others. Um, yeah, a number of examples recently, um, where there's been a lot of hearing and throwing between clients and their future spouses and you know, constant emailing from one to another with words that are not necessarily constructive and communication that isn't necessarily helpful, and it is this heightened emotional state and it's it's not kind of taking a step back and thinking actually is this moving us forward towards the decision or actually is this just adding fuel to the fire?

I think yeah, it's for one of them to break that chain. And so in that example you are saying there are communication issues no-transcript. So being brief, informative, firm and factual, then those communications can improve, improve.

But uh, as long as both are, um, are being antagonistic, then the, the, the. That's just gonna continue and we could talk about this for hours, to be honest.

Oh yes, the other side of that, isn't it? You know you want to be true to yourself, but you also want to be really clear about your boundaries. You know when, when someone is treating you in a way you do not want, want to be really clear about your boundaries. You know when, when someone is treating you in a way you do not want to to hear it's about saying, it's about stating that, isn't it? So yeah, yeah, absolutely.

and and these conversations are not always, but often if they're if they're not constructive, are better to be done by a third party, a professional, a lawyer, a mediator, you know somebody who stands between you and the person that you're divorcing and not in all cases, but I think where the communications, at that point where it's just a war of words, it's like, well, step back and let somebody else have that communication.

Yeah, provided they also need to be conscious of making the right choice of lawyer, because most lawyers, obviously we have the best intentions, but there are specific lawyers that they do want a battle and they like to fight and some people they look for that specific lawyer. And another option is that, for example, for this couple that don't know how to communicate with each other, they could also explore going to using a third party, so like going to mediation and having a mediator that helps them to have those conversations and expressing their wishes and their needs. And if they are uncomfortable being in the same room, nowadays there is what is called hybrid mediation, so they could be in separate rooms and the mediator is the one communicating on their behalf. So there are ways always to try to find solutions, but there needs to be that willingness to find that solution, to find that solution Absolutely.

I'm interested in the process that you go through, sally, to create this vision and, once it's created, how you support your clients through the process. To keep returning to that, I know you've spoken a bit about the kind of small visions going through, but the overarching vision, how do you go about creating those with your clients and and how is that supported through the process?

well, I think it is the questions that that Julia brought up at the start and then also, if I take one example, if I think about future, future planning, so envisaging you know how you want your post-divorce life to look like.

I had one client recently who she's had to leave the family home, she's had to take a role that has accommodation and she's having significant health issues, and so she was feeling really trapped. And by getting her to envisage her future, which is actually that she wants a home which she can run as an Airbnb, which is a beautiful space where she can welcome people, into a home where she can manage that around her house, into a home where she can manage that around her house, helping her to just literally visualize that through a meditation actually really helps. It changed her mindset from seeing herself as being trapped to feeling as though this was a place of safety until she could reach her vision. So I don't know if that partly answers your question. I mean it's. Obviously there are many different ways you go about it yeah, I think that's that.

It's the. What I'm interested in is there is, um, I mean, that's a great example because you're using meditation techniques and I'm thinking of how that vision is kept in the focus. So is it written document, is it? Uh? I mean I have vision boards all over the place because I've created them over the years. I have love vision boards, um, but is it something like a vision board? Is it a list? Is it a post-it note on the mirror when you get up in the morning? How do you make sure that your clients keep coming back and keeping those answers to those questions front and centre through the process?

Every client's different and you know some are visual, some are auditory, some are so. Some of my clients will have a voice note that they'll listen to first thing in the morning. Some will have that post-it note. Some will have a vision board. Some will have it written down as a piece of prose. Some will actually create their own. You know word art with the key words in it. Everyone is different and it's so important that they create something that is meaningful to them and that works for them.

Sure, I love that I think this is a really, because this is much deeper than just divorce actually, isn't it? This is more a vision for how you live your life. This is one kind of part of it, and I think the skills and techniques and practical solutions that you're helping people develop through the divorce process actually would be massively important in creating their new tractor and moving on to living the life that they design after divorce as well. It's fascinating, and obviously people do think, as you said, Sally, in so many different ways and different techniques and different skills are useful. How do you find out which reminders, which mindset, things are going to help the particular client that you're working with? I don't know if you want to take that, Julia.

So what kind of mindset is going to help the client in relation to thinking about their vision and what they want to achieve?

Yeah. So what reminders are going to work for what people? How do you know? I'm going to do a mediation with this person. I'm going to do a vision board with this person. I'm going to help them create the word. How do you get into that with a client?

Well, usually with my clients, we have like action plans and what I observe is that many of my clients find it helpful to have accountability. So, when we are thinking about actions and steps, we think about how long will it take. And steps, we think about how long will it take. We set realistic expectations and dates by when those things need to happen. So we diarise them. And when we also, when after the session, what I do is I ask them to come back to me with well, first at the end of the session, we recap, and then after the session, I do a follow-up email asking the client what we had agreed during the session, so that it's also another way for them to remember the steps.

And it is diarized and, um, they have their their own, um, they, they, they keep track by themselves, but also, uh, if they are working with me for a period of time, sometimes depending on their emotional state, I also um, um, assist them and send reminders, because you're working with different clients and when you're working with them, you know whether, because they have different personalities as well and and the different emotional stages, you know whether they need more hand-holding from you or less. But ultimately it you have to reach to a stage where they are able to make their own decisions and be and being independent. And as we continue working together, what could happen that could derail that plan? And we talk about that and we talk about alternatives in case that happened. So clients feel confident and they feel empowered and they are clear of okay, this is my plan A, but if I cannot get there, then this is my plan B. And because every little step counts and there can be changes of circumstances, there can be unexpected challenges, there can be unexpected challenges.

So what's important is that you adapt to the situation and that you don't give up and it's just simply taking those little steps that are getting you to where you want to be or what you want to achieve.

Achieve, yeah, I think that's really important.

I think what I've, what I've understood from what you've both said and and correct me if I'm wrong in what I'm, what I'm saying, but you're almost tapping into people's personality and spiritual sides to move them forward on a personal development role. So even though you're divorce coaches, actually it's almost I'm not saying it's not relevant, because obviously it is, because that's the support that you're giving somebody through that process but actually it's a lot bigger than that. What people who work with you are ending up with is personal development on a much, much greater scale than that, and I think that's why the work that you do is so incredibly important and it's so often missed out, because relationships come into an end and we go oh, go and see a lawyer and everything else is oh, everything else is out the window forgotten, and there are these huge steps that we need to take to make sure that the life we end up with afterwards is a result of personal development through that process as well. You're both nodding, yes, effectively, you grow through your divorce?

Yeah, absolutely.

When you are in the middle of that emotional turmoil, you tend to think about just the now and you don't think about the after. Family solicitor is that I realized that as a lawyer, you are helping the client until they receive their final order of divorce, or what it was called the decree absolute before, and then you don't tend to be with that client, but for that client it doesn't end there. There are a lot of things that are happening after, and so when I have my personal experience, I had that insight. I said, oh, you know, we are a lawyer, it's only a small piece of the puzzle and, yes, they can help you to sort out the legal aspects, but there is so much more because the divorce has such an impact on all areas of your life and so on can affect you at work, your career and with your relationship with your children, and it has such a huge impact and it also it involves change, and who is who a lawyer is, can you know, cannot help you to deal with just that change.

Yeah, absolutely. We're coming to the end of our time together, which I'm gobsmacked by because it's blown, and I could talk to you for hours, sally. I want to make sure that we mention the retreat and what people can get from the retreat that you're working on when it is. Just let us have all the details, if you would. So it's the end of May.

It's in Girona in Spain. It's your opportunity to, if you like, go on a transformational journey for three days. So it's for perhaps somebody who currently isn't working with a coach, who's finding it very overwhelming, who maybe doesn't feel like they've got the time on a day to day basis and would like a sort of three day intense support and help to have three days of being nurtured and relaxed, have opportunity to unwind and be supportive with other women. I think that's it. It's the retreat I would have liked to have had when I was going through my divorce, definitely.

I feel like it's the retreat I'd quite like to have now. To be honest with you, sally, I've been through many years, through my divorce sounds wonderful, and if anybody's listening to this podcast after May and they've missed their May 24, this is not a one-off. You are planning on running more of these retreats, aren't you?

Yeah, we're running them twice a year.

Yeah, excellent, so you haven't missed the boat if you're not listening to this before may 2024. If you are listening to it and you'd like to contact julia and sally and find out more about their retreat, all the details are in the show notes, how to get hold of them and places are filling up, so I'm sure you need to get a wriggle on and get booking with them if you are interested, ladies. Thank you so much. That was absolutely fascinating conversation and I'm sure it will prove very helpful to lots of our listeners. Thank you, it's been a pleasure, thank you.

Thank you, it's been a pleasure to talk to you

I hope you enjoyed the episode of the Smart Divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website www.smartdivorce.co.uk. Also if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have Facebook group now. It's called 'Separation divorce and dissolution UK.' Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care!