Where do I begin... with relationship therapist Adele Ballantyne?

Tamsin and our guest Adele Ballantyne guide the listeners through the first decisions after a relationship ends, focusing on pacing, safety, and pathways that reduce conflict and cost. Adele shares practical ways to build a support team, choose kinder legal routes, and protect children while emotions run high.

Adele Ballantyne

Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS

Chartered Financial Planner

Smart Divorce Ltd

Smart Divorce

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…

Transcript

(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)

Tamsin Caine: 0:06

Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. I'm delighted to be joined again today by the lovely Adele Ballatine. She is a wonderful business friend of mine and is going to introduce herself fully very shortly, but I'm really happy that she's joined us today because she's going to provide some excellent insights about the things you should do when you're in the initial swings of divorce. So you're perhaps thinking about separation, you're starting to think about divorce. Where should we go and what should we do? Adele, thank you for joining me again.

Adele Ballantyne: 0:44

Thanks, Tamsin. It's always good to have a chat with you. Thank you.

Tamsin Caine: 0:48

Likewise. And we said before we um pressed record that we can we can usually talk for hours and hours on this, but uh we definitely won't today. We're going to keep it to around about half an hour. So if you could start by just telling our audience a little bit about you and and what you do and how you got involved in working with people going through divorce.

Adele Ballantyne: 1:09

I am a relationship therapist. And initially, when I started my practice, I thought I would just have a quiet little medieval market town practice in Shropshire where I live. Unfortunately, uh, what happened was um, or fortunately maybe, um, the clients I was seeing, I was seeing as many people who were choosing to separate as I was, you know, uh wanting to grow a new relationship together. And so really from must be about 15 years ago now, started working um more in the separation and divorce space. And I also noticed that the solicitors, family, family um professionals, law professionals that they were going to see to help with the legal aspect of their divorce, you know, sometimes it was having a huge impact on their ability to communicate together and to begin that relationship of co-parenting. And so I then started working with family law professionals as well to try and help them negotiate this, you know, because they didn't really learn a lot about the clients that they were working with. And so I've been working for the past sort of 12 years with divorce lawyers, uh, legal professionals to try and really help them understand relationship breakdown from a psychological view and why they need to make a few adjustments in order to help their clients and indeed themselves. And so I work with individuals, couples, and families, mainly in the divorce and separation space these days. But I work all over the country via Zoom, mainly with my clients, but I also deliver in-house and in various places throughout the UK the the different courses I I provide.

Tamsin Caine: 3:06

That's a lot it is a lot. It's it's like when you start a business or you start working in a particular space and it never quite ends up being what you imagine it's gonna be. I'm definitely in that bracket, but we're not here to talk about me, so I'm not gonna get stuck into that. So let's take somebody in the situation who is perhaps things aren't right with with their spouse and they are thinking about separation and whether that's right for them. What are the first steps that that they should start to take?

Adele Ballantyne: 3:42

I think firstly we have to talk about what sort of relationship it is. So if it's a dangerous relationship or a really unhealthy, toxic type, abusive relationship, then obviously that's a different different subject matter, really. So if we're looking at a relationship that has just broken down, you've perhaps been together for a while, you've got children, uh, but it's just not working. I would say if you can try and go and see a good relationship therapist or couples therapist, because that can be the start of many different journeys. You know, it can be one way you can go and discuss where you are right now, how you got there, and whether you want to do something about it. Now, you may feel that you've already explored all of those options, but sometimes just sitting with somebody who isn't part of your uh couple can be really helpful. Um, you know, we can talk about all different sorts of uh things that you might not have thought about because some sometimes couples actually they're just stuck and they they, you know, with a few tweaks, but like going to the dentist every six months, you know, if people saw a relationship therapist once once a year, even in their relationship life as a couple, as a preventative, as a checkup, you know, this this is working really well, excuse me, but we're arguing a lot, or this keeps coming up, you can work on that and help help to resolve it. Now, for some couples, they come, we have those conversations and they decide to end their relationship. And so then it's about okay, what comes next, particularly if you have children? And it's interesting because cohabiting couples are starting to outnumber married couples. So we have to bear that in mind when we're talking about relationship breakdown, because there is still a myth that there is common law marriage and there isn't. And although there's a lot of work to change cohabitation law at the moment, there's nothing to protect you. So important conversations need to happen once you've decided to move your separate ways.

Tamsin Caine: 5:58

Absolutely. Um, just before we move on to other questions, what if you're in this position and your partner or spouse, because we'll talk about cohabitating couples as well as married couples, if your spouse is just not prepared to come to a relationship therapist, they're just they don't believe in it or don't feel it's gonna help, or it's just not it's not for them, and they're they're absolutely adamant they're not gonna not gonna come and see you. What can be done? Because that is to me that that makes sense, that's the first step you would take. But if somebody's really putting the blockers up, what can you do?

Adele Ballantyne: 6:46

I think you can still come yourself because you can learn a lot. Quite often couples will talk about they need to change, somebody needs to change, but excuse me, we can't change anybody if they don't want to, and so, but we can change ourselves, and sometimes the impact of changing ourselves has a direct result on the person that we're living with. Secondly, I would say, and I have said this on many occasions, you know, relationship therapists, couples counselors, we're not here to keep you together. When that's not our job, our job is to help you decide what you need to do based on where you are right now. And so many people think, well, if you go and see a relationship therapist, then well, I don't want to stay together, so why would I go? It's not just about that. Also, I think depending on how a therapist practice, and I always see each couple individually for a first session, and then if it's safe to do so, I'll see them together. And so that hour with somebody who perhaps has been trying to tell a partner something and they're not listening, or perhaps you know, they feel like they're just being criticized all the time, so they've shut down. Actually, that hour really gives people an opportunity to talk about their relationship through their own lens, through from where they're sitting. And and I've had partners who said, Oh, I you know, I thought I was being dragged here to keep this together. You're telling me you're not gonna make us stay together. And I'm like, it's I can't make you do anything, you know, and that's not my job. Um, I also say to reluctant people, it's an hour out of your life. If it if you find that it's no good, you don't have to come again. It's not compulsory. Um, but I would always urge you if you're if you're interested in understanding relationships a bit more and your own relationship, then just just come and see somebody and talk it through. They may offer uh information that you haven't thought about. Uh, and it also can perhaps give you some top tips and strategies for beginning the conversations that you need with a reluctant partner, and that's really vital.

Tamsin Caine: 9:09

Absolutely. And I guess the other thing is that it can help, even if this one you've you've you do decide to separate, it can help future relationships as well to understand yourself a little bit better, can't it?

Adele Ballantyne: 9:23

It can, it can, and it's always helpful learning a bit about yourself as you go through life. We are evolutionary uh creatures, aren't we? And you know, we're very different in in at different points, different decades of our lives. We we change, we evolve based on the experiences we have, the relationships that we have. And it could be that it might be something that that we're doing that is is causing relationships not to work out, and sometimes just taking time to reflect. It's a bit like you know, New Year's Eve, isn't it? Everybody's taught to, you know, think about what's your new year's resolution, what do you want to have for the next year? Well, you can't do that unless you take time out to think about what's okay in your life, what's not okay, what needs to be different. And that's what talking to somebody like me will help you with.

Tamsin Caine: 10:16

Yeah, no, I love that. Let's move on to you have decided to you've well, you've either decided yourself or together, or it's been decided for you, so your other partner is leaving. Uh then what what things do people need to be thinking about? What are the steps that they need to be taking first?

Adele Ballantyne: 10:40

I think the first thing is don't panic, don't rush. You don't have to have this all decided within the next few weeks. Because once you've decided that the relationship's over in whatever way that is, you know, you are you are grieving, you are pushed into the grief cycle. And so you'll be all over the place, ups and downs. Now it's usual in couples that one person has decided a good 18 months, two years that they're not okay, and it's been a gradual move towards having that conversation. So they're going to be at a different stage of the grieving process to the person who's just heard it. So give them time, let it settle in. You might have got to that point of acceptance where you need to move on, but they're on catch-up. So they need time, they need to let it sink in, they're going to be angry, upset, volatile, or you know, mixed with depressed and sad. And so let them adjust, give them adjustment time. I think the next stage from that is to get some information, particularly if you have children. Information is gradually increasing in the UK. Um, it used to be quite hard to find. Um, I would recommend everybody, if they can go to the resolution website and download a copy of the Parenting Through Separation Guide. It's a short uh booklet that will really, really help you. It covers all the different uh areas that are going to be coming up in the future. So get some information. Perhaps do a parent program. Um, that again will give you lots of information. And there are quite a few now in the country, and there will be a directory coming up in the not too distant future. Um, and I would recommend certainly that you go um and do a parent program. It will put you in touch with other people who are about to go on this journey or who are already a bit further down the line. It stops you from feeling alone, it helps you to understand importantly what you're going to need, but more importantly, what your children are going to need, because it's our behavior as adults that can really mess up our kids. And we've got to really be careful about how we keep the adult relationship breakdown journey separate from what will become hopefully a good co-parent uh journey. And so, courses parent programs will really help you with that. So I would say that's the first step. Don't panic and get lots of information.

Tamsin Caine: 13:30

I like the idea of taking time because I think one of the things that I certainly see is a rush to contact a lawyer to get a decision about how you're going to divide everything. And in those first few weeks and months, you're not in a position where you should be making decisions that impact the whole of the rest of your life. And taking time to be in as good an emotional space and state as possible is worth its weight in gold to make sure that you're making the best decisions later as well. So I think that's um I think that's excellent advice. And the the parenting plans and so on, fantastic advice too. How would somebody go about getting their heads into the best place possible to be in that good enough in that emotional state to be making these decisions about children, about money, about where they're going to live, all those sorts of things that that need to be decided?

Adele Ballantyne: 14:35

I think for me, the next step then is the support team that you create around you. And that's that's that's all different kinds of people that can help you. So certainly coming to talk to somebody like me who work in under this um in this environment. I I call myself a family consultant. Um, we work with legal professionals to help clients come through this. So find a family consultant, find a co-parent coach. There's some really good co-parent coach, Marcy Schauel and her fantastic co-parenting method. Absolutely helpful. It will just give you some information. I think we are really trying now to stop people from going to court because family court is no place for families that aren't abusive, really. They they families need to keep out of out of court. So think about what sort of uh legal professional you want to work with. In the rottweiler days of I'll see you in court, you know, I'm taking you for everything you've got. We're moving away from that now because the people who suffer are you as an individual and your kids. So find a kind lawyer, find somebody who has a good approach who will calm any any big emotional situations, not fan the flames and make it worse. Choose, find out, get some information about what kind of legal process you want. Do you want to do it online? I wouldn't necessarily recommend that in itself, because I think lots of us need legal advice. So, but there are different ways now. So, do you want to go and see one lawyer? Because you can do that now. One one lawyer for both of you, and you go together. Do you want to go and see a mediator? Have some really good work with them. There's a voucher scheme now, so you get some money off. Then when you've gone through mediation, go and see a lawyer. And that one lawyer will be able to then put that into the legal speak that it needs to go into, the legal bit, and then you're done. Do you want a collaborative lawyer? Would you feel more confident having your own representation? Brilliant. Choose collaborative divorce. Each of you have a lawyer. You agree and sign a document to say you don't want to go to court, and then you sit round a table. But you don't just sit round a table with two lawyers. You sit around a table with somebody like me and somebody like you tums in because there's finances to think about as well. But the conversations you have are around a table in person. And the only letters that you will get from your lawyer are those confirming what was agreed in the meetings. It's a great, it's a great way to go through the divorce process. And if there are elements that you can't agree on, then in collaborative process, you can get an arbitrator in. Arbitration is like going to court, but not going to court. You get a legal professional who is just focused on that, those issues that you can't agree on. And then they make a judgment, like a judge would. Try not to think about that on an angry day, because there will be days where you are angry. Try and think of it on an on another day. But think about the sort of divorce you want. Think about who you need in your support team. So you've got a family consultant, you've got your divorce lawyer in whatever way that looks. And think about who you want to support you, family and friends. Again, pick somebody who knows you well and who isn't just going to go with the flow of what you're thinking and feeling. Yes, you want the support, but you don't want somebody saying, Yeah, do this, do that. You know, let's take them down. Actually, you want somebody to say, hey Tamsin, you're on an angry day, or hey Tamsin, I hear what you're saying, and obviously it's that's really upsetting. And as your friend, God, that's terrible. I'm really sorry. Let's reflect on this though and think about it tomorrow, because making that decision might not be good for your kids, might not be good for you. So family will always want to be in your corner, they'll always want to protect you, particularly parents if you have them. Um again, you want a parent who is going to calm things down. And sometimes that's having a conversation with those people and saying, look, when I'm going off on one and I'm being really unreasonable, what I need you to do is talk me down. You'll learn things like that on parent programs, you'll learn techniques like that when you come and see somebody like me. So build a support team. So in stages, we're looking at not panicking and getting information. We're looking at, you know, doing a parent, parent program, like a spear poor. I do one first aid first steps for parents, and then we build that support team. So you've got a series of steps, if you like, that you can follow.

Tamsin Caine: 20:17

Yeah, absolutely. That's great advice. In terms of of things that you can do for yourself to keep your to put yourself in a good space, is there anything you would recommend when you it's very difficult to take that time and not do anything? Is there is there anything that that you would recommend that people are doing? Because there's this need to do something, isn't there, when something happens to you? Is there anything that you would recommend people personally do? I don't know, meditation or I don't know, anything like that to get them in the in a really good space?

Adele Ballantyne: 20:55

Yeah, self-care, next step, really, because lots of people say to me, Oh, I've lost so much weight since I've been on the since our my relationship has broken down. Call it the D diet, don't know, the divorce diet. And and that's because when we're grieving, our bodies produce lots of chemicals, you know, and we're in this time of stress, and we either sleep too much or not enough, we either eat too much or not enough. It really messes with us. We've got thoughts whizzing around our heads, you know. We've this isn't also a threat to us. So we are in that freeze, fight, flight, fawn mode, and and that of course can affect our day-to-day thinking, our day-to-day functioning. So get a routine to together so that you've got some time to care for yourself and have a buddy who will say, have you, you know, have you eaten today? Have you had some meditative time? Maybe some, we talk about this a lot, don't we? Lots of breathing, lots of mindfulness. And it sounds quite, I don't know, it sounds like, oh yeah, we do that anyway, don't we? We breathe all the time. But taking time out, and it doesn't need to be a lot, we're all busy, but you know, in the morning, if you're making a cup of tea, just go and stand outside and breathe some fresh air while the kettle's boiling. Literally, you know, the these things uh that you can do. Take some time to eat well, because when we're stressed, we tend to just grab and go. And sometimes what we grab is not necessarily healthy. So it doesn't have to be um complicated, you know, if you're if you're not a vegan or on a diet, you know, boiled egg, a half-boiled egg, keep some in your fridge. It's protein, it'll give you some energy. Make sure you're drinking plenty, water, tea, coffee, whatever it is. Not wine, not wine. What I mean, an occasional glass of wine or a night out with your friends, that can be really helpful. A good, good laugh with your friends when there's not much to laugh at at the moment. Really helpful, you know, and support your children while they're going through this as well. There are some great resources for kids out there now. Particular book, the um, oh, I always forget what it's called. It's like the split survival guide for for kids, and Harold Rudkin. Amazing book for kids because it helps them understand what you're going through and will give them a bit of encouragement, reassure them their world's been turned upside down, but not in the same way that your world's been turned upside down. Because for them, they're looking at it that you're their mum and dad, not that you're, you know, Frida and Barry and your two adults who've who've fallen out. They're not looking at it like that. You're mum and dad, and you are their world. And so they need some reassurance. So, so I think self-care for them, make sure that your kids are okay too. It's all right if they see you crying, that's all right. Parents worry about that. It gives them permission to cry if they see you doing it, because this is a sad time. Lots of changes happening. So pace yourself, look after yourself and your children. And you know, that will certainly help on this journey.

Tamsin Caine: 24:25

That's really good advice. I was gonna uh something came up for me whilst you were talking around help. I I don't know if everybody's like this, but when I was going through my divorce, I really struggled to accept help that people were offering, and it might be can I look after the kids for a couple of hours for you? And I was in this space of trying to be superwoman and hold down a full-time job. And I mean, I did it a really ridiculous time. I was doing a master's as well. So I was holding out a full-time job, going through a master's, trying to bring up two kids, and all of this was going on for me, and people were offering help, and I'm not very good at accepting it, but we should accept help, shouldn't we?

Adele Ballantyne: 25:14

Yeah, yeah. It's this is as big. This is this in terms of life events. Death is a is a huge stress life event. The second is divorce, separation. And so, you know, what would we do if somebody we knew had lost a loved one through death? We'd be there, we would be offering support. We're not an island, receiving support is not a weakness, it's a strength, it's showing vulnerability and being vulnerable with people is something we need to get better at. And I hold my hand up as well. I'm terrible for accepting help. However, once you get into the habit of it and start saying yes instead of no, actually it gets a lot easier. And also it's about the type of help. So ask for what you need. Sometimes we're not very good at that. So, particularly if parents are saying, Oh, and I'll do this and I'll do that. If that's not going to be helpful to you, you're going to refuse it. So ask for what you need. That's lovely. Thanks for offering to do that, Dad. But actually, this would be more helpful to me right now, or even preempt it. Sit and think about, well, what's the week ahead looking like? What am I going to need help with? And then asking, you know, because people want to help you. So ask for what you need rather than be, you know, overwhelmed by offers of things that actually you don't need help with, but do ask for help.

Tamsin Caine: 26:52

And I think people, people who are offering their help genuinely want to help, and they're not offering it out of sympathy or whatever, they get something back from being able to be there for you and to help you, don't they?

Adele Ballantyne: 27:07

Yeah, they do. They do. And and yeah, it it gives you a feel good, and and you you would hope, wouldn't you, that if if then anything happened with you, that it would be reciprocated. I think one thing that often stands out with what clients tell me is that in their friendship group, they've been really surprised by people's reactions to when they tell them that they are separating. And some people who you think have got your back haven't. And they've been really surprised that people they thought they were good friends with have disappeared from their social circle. Be prepared for that because we don't expect that. We think that the people that we're uh socializing with, have made friendships with, you know, are authentic and sometimes they're not, or sometimes they just can't cope with what's happening. Maybe they've had a traumatic childhood where their parents had separated and it's too too triggering for them to be around you. Sometimes they might choose to be friends with your ex rather than you, and you might be really surprised by that. Yeah. I think it's just important to point that out because you know, we I hear it a lot. Yeah, so it does happen.

Tamsin Caine: 28:32

It absolutely does. And sometimes the people who step up and who are there for it for you are absolutely not the people you expect to be the ones to support you. But um yeah, absolutely be prepared for that, but also accept accept help if it's useful from those who are offering it. I just want to touch very briefly because we mentioned at the minute at the beginning that we weren't, we weren't the advice that you've just given wasn't around toxic coercive relationships where there's where there's abuse. And I work a lot with with people who are leaving abusive relationships, and and I know you do as well. The this is very different, and I just want to touch briefly on on how you might approach that in in a different way, and also because I feel that quite a lot of my clients don't necessarily realise they were in an abusive relationship until it comes to an end, and then they start looking back and they think, oh yeah, no, that that wasn't right. There's always been this flow of things. What would you suggest to people who are in that position?

Adele Ballantyne: 29:45

I think the first thing to say is we we are currently living in a world where everybody is a narcissist, everybody is abusive, everybody is controlling. We're not. There are there are dangerous and unhealthy relationships out there, absolutely. Absolutely. So we have to think about safety first and foremost. So is this relationship as safe as it can be right now? Or do we have to take immediate action so that everybody is safe? So always from a point of view of safety. I think understanding, and certainly when I meet somebody, if they say, oh, they're controlling that they're narcissistic. I'm a psychotherapist, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. They are the only people who can diagnose narcissistic personality disorder. Do we show narcissistic traits when we're under emotional pressure? Absolutely we do. And it can make us into very nasty people. Does it mean we've been controlling coercive all our relationship life? Not necessarily. So we have to be cautious. We have to be cautious. It's one thing to say, oh my partner's controlling with finances. If you just take that as that statement is delivered to you and you run with that, you've only got a very limited amount of information. We don't have any information that says, yes, they are controlling. They they watch everything that I spend. I have no access to money. I've got no credit cards, no, no debit cards. I've given this amount of money and I have to manage with it. Um, I had a client once whose husband used to go through the bin to make sure she hadn't thrown anything away because she once threw a moldy crust away, and he was furious about that. So we have to think about what relationships look like. It could be they've talked to you about finance and their partners not giving them access to some money because maybe that person has run up debt and they they don't want to be in any more debt. We don't know, do we? And in in relationships, some couples never really talk about how to handle the finance. One usually doesn't like anything to do with it, and one usually does. So if you're the one who said, Well, shall I do the finances in happy times? And you've gone, yeah, yeah, because I hate, I hate all of that. You do all the bills and all the um roll that forward 10 years. Well, I've never had anything to do with finance that he he, she has been really controlling. You've got to find out more information. So if it is a really dangerous relationship, an abusive situation, a controlling and coercive one, then we've got to think about an exit strategy that is the safest for you. And it's a it's a long topic to talk about, but I work from place of safety first and foremost. Um, and usually when you're wanting to leave an abusive relationship, if it's not one where you have to leave immediately and seek shelter somewhere, then it's about planning, planning an exit strategy where you're going to be supported and safe.

Tamsin Caine: 33:05

Absolutely. And a couple of places to contact, just because we're not going to go into detail in in today's podcast, but there are other podcasts where we do go into much more detail. But places to contact women's aid, refuge, your local domestic abuse services, please. If you're if you believe that there's any chance your phone or laptop might be being tracked, please do it from a friend's phone or laptop so that you're not putting yourself in further danger. And those services, those charities will help you to plan an exit strategy, or if it's urgent and you're not safe, they will try and find you some accommodation. So please do contact those charities if you if you believe that's your situation. We're coming to the end of our time. As I said at the beginning, I knew we would be able to talk about this topic for hours on end. Is there anything that you want to add to what we've said today or anything that I should have asked you?

Adele Ballantyne: 33:59

I don't think so. I think just take your time. I know it feels desperate, I know it feels immediate, but get some information. Learn as much as you can. You know, if you are in a situation where you can share that information with your um soon-to-be ex-partner, do and make sure you you're learning about this journey together, particularly if you have children, because they're going to need you. And as responsible parents, you know, it is about stepping into parenting shoes rather than adult shoes when you're making decisions about them for your children. That's really hard to master when you're going through these emotional early stages of separation. So you have got time. Marcy always says this is a marathon, not a sprint. And long after you finished with the divorce lawyers, your life goes on as co-parents. So learn about what co-parenting is. Learn about what information you need to share and what you don't. You might not want your ex in your life anymore, but your kids will. So, how do you enable them to have that loving, free relationship with the other parent when you're feeling the way that you do?

Tamsin Caine: 35:22

Yeah, that's brilliant advice. And and you're absolutely right. You know, I'm 10 years divorced and I'm still, my kids are 20 and 21, and we're still co-parenting them. You know, they still, they still need you long after you perhaps think that that won't be the case. And and there are still things and issues that that I need to speak to my fellow co-parent about and make sure that we we form a united front. So that's um that's really good advice. Adele, as always, thank you so much for joining me today. Um that was wonderful to speak to you. Um, and we will include Adele's details in the show notes should you want to get in touch with her or need her assistance if you are in any of the positions that we've discussed today. Also, Adele mentioned Marcy, um Marcy Shoel. She you can find an episode that we recorded with her when she released her book, I think only a couple of months ago. So please do look back for that episode because you'll find it very useful if you want to hear all about co-parenting um and her book and various courses that she offers. Thank you for joining me. Thank you, Adele, for joining me, and we'll be back very soon.

Adele Ballantyne: 36:34

Many thanks. Thanks, Tamsin.

Tamsin Caine: 36:41

Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website www.smartdivorce.co.uk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group, and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.