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Dr Supriya McKenna
Supriya is the UK's best known expert in narcissism. She originated from a background as a GP (family physician). She coaches and mentors the victims of narcissistic abuse, including in the high conflict area of divorce. She has trained thousands of family law professionals, including judges, barristers, solicitors, mediators and social workers. She is the author of the no.1 bestselling book, 'Divorcing a Narcissist - the Lure, the Loss and the Law' and 'Narcissism and Family Law - A Practitioner's Guide' (with legal contributions from Karin Walker). She is a regular speaker on the subject of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, has been interviewed on numerous radio shows and regularly comments and writes articles for various media outlets on Narcissism. She also hosts the hugely popular podcast, 'Narcissists in Divorce - the Lure, the Loss and the Law', where she can be heard in lively debate with some of the other of the biggest names in Narcissism. Her online courses are straightforward, engaging and empathic. If you are interested in 1 to 1 coaching with her, you can also visit www.thelifedoctor.org
You can connect with Supriya on Linkedin, Twitter (@MckennaSupriya) and Instagram (doctorsupriya) or by email on connect@thelifedoctor.org
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine: 0:55
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast, and I'm really delighted to be joined by Dr Supriya McKenna. For those of you who haven't heard of this wonderful woman, she is the UK's best-known voice in the field of narcissism and is a former GP. Her previous podcast episode with us has overtaken the episode that I did about finances in our chart and she's now second in our top 10 of podcast episodes in terms of popularity, so this is certainly a subject that people want to hear about. Having co-authored the only book on narcissism for family law professionals, she's trained thousands of UK judges, lawyers, mediators and social workers in narcissistic personality disorder. She also works directly with those who've fallen victim to narcissistic abuse in any area of their lives, which includes advising on strategy and communication.
Tamsin Caine: 2:00
Supriya produces and hosts the top five podcast, narcissists in Divorce the Narcissist Trap, so she's very good on podcasts. She knows exactly what she's doing. Her resources include her online courses that can be found on her websites, which we will pop into the show notes for you, and she regularly posts insights on Instagram, linkedin and Blue Sky. A regular media commentator on the subject of narcissism, Supriya has contributed to and written numerous articles and is an Amazon bestselling author on the subject. Her latest books are the Narcissist Trap and Narcissist in Divorce series.
Tamsin Caine: 2:38
The co-parenting myth how to Protect your Children and Stamp Out Post-Separation Abuse is her latest book in the Narcissist in Divorce series, which was released last month. And that is the reason I have asked her to come and speak to us today, because we're going to speak about the issue of co-parenting in divorce and the way I feel about co-parenting and it's very similar to the way I feel about amicable divorce is that it's something that it feels like if you don't manage to do it in some way, you're failing. It feels a bit like the whole myth around breastfeeding when you're a new parent. If your child can't and you have to use a bottle, there's a whole load of guilt and shame and failure thrown at you. And hopefully our conversation today with Supriya will crash some of those myths and explain why in certain circumstances it's just not feasible or possible. So, Supriya, I'm absolutely delighted to have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to come speak to us today.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 3:56
Thank you very much for inviting me back. I want to know who number one is, by the way, in your top 10.
Tamsin Caine: 4:03
It's the first ever episode that we recorded and it's not very far in front of you, and I have a feeling you're going to take over fairly soon. Especially after this episode comes out, I think people will go back and listen to the other one as well. So let's start off. Why is your latest book called the Co-Parenting Myth?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 4:24
Well, I think you basically alluded to that in your introduction, and yet you're absolutely right. I mean, we are expected and shamed actually for not being able to co-parent at times, and with a narcissist it is impossible. You cannot co-parent with a narcissist. And more than that. It's not just that they won't cooperate, they actually counter parent. So what that means is they do the exact opposite of what the other parent wants. And there's very good reasons why they do the exact opposite of what the other parent wants. And there's very good reasons why they do that. They actually use the children as weapons, as excuses, because they want to get narcissistic supply from their former partner, because their former partner was previously their most reliable source of narcissistic supply. And actually we do talk about narcissistic supply on the previous podcast episode, but I think we might need to just quickly go through it again.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 5:18
But you know, I just want people to know it's unreasonable, it's an unreasonable expectation to think that you should be able to co-parent with a narcissist, because it puts the other parent in a place where they're being abused by the narcissistic parent, and this is post-separation abuse and it's part of you know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 5:40
I mean there's also post-separation economic abuse. There's all sorts of types of post-separation abuse, but using the children as weapons is a huge one, and it goes on until the children grow up. And the problem with this is that if you are dragged back into court, social workers will blame both parties equally, judges will blame both parties equally, that they're going to suggest co-parenting courses and family therapy to work. And I've heard social workers say our job is with these middle class parents. They all sort of have a thing like middle class parents for some reason. I'm not quite sure why, but our job is to knock these parents' heads together and bang some sense into them so that they can co-parent and they don't understand that the problem is an underlying personality disorder, and actually banging two people's heads together is not, as far as I'm aware anyway, um, an effective treatment for curing a personality disorder.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 6:24
So you know...
Tamsin Caine: 6:25
I think you probably are
Dr Supriya McKenna: 6:26
telling that just a little work about. You know, and there's that whole, it takes two to tango um attitude. So you know it, just, it's so unhelpful and and there's that whole, it takes two to tango um attitude. So you know it, just, it's so unhelpful and and there's a load of shame attached to this.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 6:39
I mean there's so much at the moment, co-parenting experts is, you know, there's a whole, there are new books out, how to you know um, they're sort of almost chastising the, the you know people for not being able to co-parent, going no, this is how you have to do it. And they never say at any point, as far as I'm aware anyway, actually some of you just won't be able to do it and that's not your fault because there are people you know, there are people with whom you can't co-parent. It's really important that people understand that. You know their parenting rules might apply, but you know, if your co-parent is a narcissist or co-parent is a narcissist, you have to use those parenting rules in isolation. You're not going to be doing them with the narcissist and the only model that works is parallel parenting and that's really important and hopefully we'll be talking about that just briefly. Later on as well.
Tamsin Caine: 7:30
Yeah, absolutely, and you're absolutely spot on in what you say. You know, and whilst it takes two to tango it, it is sometimes nonsense. Actually it takes two co-parents to actually co-parent. And you know, certainly we had um Marcia on a couple of weeks ago on the podcast and she, to be absolutely fair to her, is a co-parenting expert and very much agreed with the situation that you can, in isolation in your box and doing what you can. I think it'd be really useful and I know we did do this on the previous podcast but to talk about what narcissistic personality disorder actually is and therefore what narcissistic supply is, and the reason being is that narcissist is one of those flipping words that all sorts of people have got their hands on and is used not necessarily in a correct way. So could we, could you just give us some some kind of definition, some some understanding of what those things actually are when they exist in this sort of situation that we're talking about?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 9:03
Yeah, so when I'm talking about narcissists or narcissism, I'm actually talking about something called narcissistic personality disorder and that's a diagnosable personality disorder.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 9:12
So it's in the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, so it is actually an actual diagnosable disorder. But most narcissists are never going to get in front of a psychologist or psychiatrist to actually ever be diagnosed. Narcissists basically exhibit. So we all have narcissistic traits, but personality disorders are extreme manifestations of normal traits. That's really important to understand and it's very easy to kind of, when you're having an awful divorce or whatever, to think, oh, my ex is a narcissist, um, because they're behaving unreasonably, because they had an affair, because they, you know. But a true narcissist behaves in very, very particular ways and they do. They don't just do some of the bad behaviours that I identify in all my books the finances and the children and more, and they do pretty much all of them. So it's really really extreme.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 10:05
And narcissism, in a nutshell, is a condition of low empathy, where the person has a sense of entitlement and they exploit other people for their own benefit. They can't see people as being a blend of good and bad. So that's called a lack of whole object relation. So you'll notice that you've either been on a pedestal or just, you know, in the mud, hero to zero with your ex. So when you leave your ex or when your relationship breaks down, you're all bad. Basically, you're now seen as all bad, whereas when they're happy with you you're all good. You're not a blend of good and bad traits, and so when you're all bad, of course you deserve to be taken down. And narcissists also have a need to control and win, because they need to feel powerful and special and because they've got that low empathy, they can't care about how their behaviours are making the other people feel. So it's really important to understand that a narcissist, although they might appear to be quite you know, Donald Trump doesn't appear, for example, to have low self-esteem, but underneath it all, in fact, he does.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 11:08
And so a narcissist, underneath it all, has low self-esteem. What they do is they build a false persona which they put out to the outside world, which acts as a shield, and they can hide behind it. But that false persona only exists in the presence of external validation. So they need other people to believe in their false persona so that they can believe in it themselves, because if they can believe in it themselves, they don't have to feel their true feelings of shame and worthlessness and inadequacy. So that's what I mean about it being a shield, but because it's only strong if other people believe in it, it crumbles basically if other people don't. So what they need is this thing called narcissistic supply to keep their false personas strong, to protect them from having to feel their true feelings. And they get this narcissistic supply from, basically, attention from other people, adoration, drama, conflict and by instilling fear in others and also, like I said, feeling in control and winning. Those things also give them narcissistic supply. Feeling and winning, and those things also give them narcissistic supply.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 12:16
And I always tell people that to think about narcissistic supply in a sort of metaphorical sense. So if you imagine that narcissistic supply is stored in a bucket with a hole in it, that narcissistic supply is constantly draining away and loads of people are pouring narcissistic supply into that bucket, everyone the narcissist knows. So the spouse will be pouring at the fastest rate, the biggest amounts. The spouse is the biggest watering can. The children, the family, all sorts of the work colleagues, the casual acquaintances, the friends everybody's pouring in smaller amounts or bigger amounts depending on who they are, at different rates, but basically, when the spouse goes um, suddenly this big watering can that's pouring in supply at the fastest rate and the most most of it, you know you can imagine the levels in the bucket they drop, and an narcissist needs to keep those levels above a certain level. Um, in order, constantly, in order for their shield to be whole and strong, so that their false personas they can protect themselves.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 13:16
So what happens in divorce is they've lost their spouse and they're not getting the supply. The levels in the bucket drop, the false persona disintegrates. Suddenly they're feeling their shame, their worthlessness, their inadequacy. That's like an existential crisis to an narcissist. They can't bear, bear it. So what they do is they react with rage, and that, of course, is a large part of why they're behaving in the way that they are in narcissism, because, of course, if you react with rage, you're going to get attention from the people who are around. You're going to cause drama, conflict and fear as well. You know those things are the sort of narcissistic supply. You're going to get loads of narcissistic supply. You're going to top your bucket right up again and feel better about yourself. So that's actually what it's all about.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 13:59
So they're using the children as tools, as excuses or reasons to actually get that supply from their ex. That's the whole point. If you're tied to a narcissist by children, they're just going to be used so that you can, you know, so that they can get their supply. And they don't know this. Of course they don't know there's a bucket with a hole in it. Obviously they know what they're doing, but they don't know why. And of course, also if their ex left them, which is usually the case, I have to say, they're also dealing with the injury of that and the abandonment and how that made them feel, and so they actively want to punish their ex for that. Um, they're never going to get over it and never going to get over the fact that you left them, and they're always going to be looking to find ways to punish their ex. So, so, really, that's that's what it's all about.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 14:45
that's why we have these issues
Tamsin Caine: 14:47
And from reading your books and speaking to you over the years. There's a very specific playbook that these people use. We can see, we know what they're going to do. We know how they're going to react to things. We know what to say to get them to behave in a certain way. Everything and my clients who have been married to somebody with narcissistic personalities sort of have although undiagnosed, obviously have seen you know they, I've said you everything that she says in her book happens over and over in my relationship. I can see. You know, every word of what she said plays out, and this is so. This playbook means that we then know how we can expect that parent I'm not going to call them a co-parent to behave differently, um, when they're parenting with the narcissist. So so what things can we expect?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 16:03
yeah, so it's.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 16:04
I mean their behavior is going to be abusive and because they ramp up their abuse actually in divorce and separation and post-separation. So that's the first thing. It's we're talking about abuse and I I divide this into emotional abuse, financial abuse and legal abuse, and that's in the context of trying to bring up the children. They're going to be using the children as weapons of those three types of abuse. So say, on the emotional abuse front, they're going to try constantly to. They're going to use the children essentially as excuses to have contact with their ex, because they need that narcissistic supply from their ex, their most reliable source that they know they can trigger into giving them supply by reacting in all sorts of ways. So they need to try and see, um, their ex as much as possible, um, so they'll do things like they'll turn up to school events when they never bothered before if their ex is there and they'll turn up to parents evenings, for example, if they never bothered before, or they'll they'll suddenly want joint children's birthday parties. You know, you know, um fififi says that she wants us both to be at her birthday party. You know, really the narcissist wants to. You know, it's this massive way to get supply from everybody, but also seeing the ex-spouse and being able to get supply from the ex-spouse making the ex-spouse feel really uncomfortable Suddenly. Hospital appointments, for example, and GP appointments, they'll want to be at every single one. You know they might turn up to school, and I had one. He would turn up to school.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 17:28
So if the mother in this case the narcissist was a father, so if the mother was picking up the child it was one child he'd never, ever. I mean he never picked the children up, he'd never picked the child ever, ever, ever. But he would certainly turn up to her pickups and sort of pick up the and he'd want to sort of swing the daughter between the two of them down the road back to um, back to um, the mother's car, I mean, it's just, you know, and of course everybody on looking on is thinking, oh, that's lovely, isn't it? Because he he really cares, cares now they're separate just wants to make sure that everybody you know that they're still friends and they can still, and it was, she was, I mean it was awful for her, awful um, and she just had to try and grin and bear it. Um, so yeah, and so that was.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 18:14
That's the kind of thing they do and, of course, everyone is actually lording the narcissist for this kind of you know being terribly mature about this um, they'll want to drop off their overnight bags directly to the spouse's house, for example, rather than just doing, you know, the overnight bags through school. They'll want to have mediation about every issue to do with the children. That aren't issues just to get them in a room, you know. So they've got their ex in a room, um, and then they can triangulate them with a mediator and that's great, great way to feel special and superior and break, you know, see their ex break down, or you know, yeah, I mean, and these, of course, on the surface, as I say, these look like normal behaviors and it makes the spouse actually look the non-narcissistic spouse look like the unreasonable one the power imbalance in in mediation is enormous and quite often what I've seen and I'm not knocking mediation at all, it's just not appropriate often in these situations.
Tamsin Caine: 19:12
But what I've seen is the narcissist be able to, because of the way they are, because the personality that they've built up, this shield personality they're able to get the mediator on their side and because the spouse is so overpowered, has been treated so badly for so long they can't say what they want to say in mediation, they can't stand up for themselves and what ends up happening is that the spouse is almost on one side and then the mediator and the narcissist are kind of on the other and it makes it a million times worse and that just feels. I know. You know mediators are not always trained in this area but really need to be so that they can see what's happening in front of them.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 20:09
Yeah, and that exact same dynamic happens in couples therapy as well, which is why it's just awful to have couples therapy with a narcissist. And that's, you know, the drama triangle. We heard of the Cartman's drama triangle. So there's a victim, it's great, there's's a victim, there's a persecutor and a rescuer, essentially, and the narcissist is obviously the narcissist is the persecutor. But what they can do is they can check, they can spin the positions, um, so if, if one person moves position in that triangle, then everybody else has to move as well, or other people have to move, because all three positions need to be filled. So they are actually the persecutor. But what they do is they side with the mediator and they make the um the true victim. They basically they turn the mediator into the persecutor against the victim, um, and, and then they become the rescuer, and on it goes. They just kind of spin the wheel. So it's just horrific. And they then turn, but what they're alleging is that actually the victim is the perpetrator or the persecutor. So the victim then becomes a persecutor, the mediator then becomes the rescuer, and, and, and it's actually the narcissist who's claiming to be the victim. So you see, it's just so toxic, going round and round and round and it's actually the narcissist who's claiming to be the victim. So can you see, it's just so toxic, going round and round and round and you get nowhere. You get absolutely nowhere. Um, yeah, it's horrific, absolutely okay, I interrupted you. No, no, that's a really really good point. A really really good point and really important to say because, yeah, you know there is a power imbalance. Um, that is what happens. Do I'm going to go through this in in my books and I go into it in great detail in the narcissist trap, explaining exactly how this power, um differential develops over time and exactly how, what they do. But you know, harassment is a huge one as well.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 21:55
I was saying about you know that they will bombard their ex with correspondence to do that. The children, any excuse. And I had one lady who her ex, he'd never been interested in anything to do with the child's. You know diet before. But suddenly he was like, oh, I need to know what she had for tea. Um, you know with when she was with you and what the school meals were, so that I can make sure she has something different, you know on when she's with me. And it was just. I mean, he just came. I've never seen so many outrageous kind of um. I mean he was bombarding her just most outrageous reasons to contact her and, of course, any issues at school like special educational needs. I mean, wow, you're just asking for um for contact there.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 22:36
Um, you know they'll be trying to. You know, stop block um educational assessments, or or they'll be trying to stop block educational assessments or they'll be trying to make sure they have them, or they'll be making complaints about the school or talking about the reading record and trying to get change. I mean all sorts of things, change what they're doing in terms of their schooling. And another thing is they'll be harassing about contact times. So you know they'll want changes.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 23:02
You know why can't she see Uncle Harry? But he's only over for, you know, three weeks and he hasn't seen, you know, even though it's their time. And you then feel you know the other party's time. Then you feel guilty. Oh my God, yes, that's true, maybe I should change the schedule for this and then, once you've done that, that's it. It's a free for all. They will just carry on changing the schedule and they can even use apps like Our Family Wizard as a weapon of abuse, as a way to contact their ex and if they're really really clever, so the ones who are actually really intelligent, high IQ, they can do it where they just look really reasonable on their messages, and so not answering them, not giving them supply, you know, if the person is not answering them, they look like they're the one who's, you know, refusing to co-parent, and so that's important. You know, in the main I do recommend our Family Wizard, I have to say, and at close, these kind of parenting apps, but with a super bright one, you know, you have to be careful.
Tamsin Caine: 24:01
These kind of parenting apps, but with a super bright one.
Tamsin Caine: 24:03
Yeah, I spoke to our family wizard about this because I have a client who was absolutely abused through our family wizard and the issue that she was having was he would send reams and reams of information hundreds of sides of A4 in information through our family wizard and if she didn't read it all, she would miss the hidden question that she needed to respond to that was in the reams of information.
Tamsin Caine: 24:37
So she was having to go through his nonsense to find the reasonable question that was asked that she needed to respond to and I spoke to our family minister about it and to be to available to be changed, where you can at least get the information, show it to a court or send it to a court or whatever. They could use a different system which would be alterable, use a different system which would be alterable, so an email system or a whatsapp system or whatever. So if they're going to go through this process of contact, they're probably going to do it in some way and you're almost better with having the time stamped and legally admissible of our family wizard. So yeah, just wanted to make that point, just because it is a situation I've seen and I have spoken to them about it and said this is happening, just wanted to make you aware.
Tamsin Caine: 25:49
and they yeah, that was the point that they came back with
Dr Supriya McKenna: 25:52
they actually contacted me because I gave a talk and I said this what I've just said you know similar. And and they said, um, you know, um, we want your slides because you've been, you've been basically bad mouthing us, which is not really. I mean, as I say, I recommend it in the main it's just for the very, very high, even for narcissists, but in fact particularly for narcissists, but it's just the extreme end. You know the donald trump types where you've got to be careful, um, but um, I I sent um a couple of people to them, um, because to tell them what issues they were having as a result of that. So at least you know, we had a conversation about it and I was able to sort of send a couple of people to them so that they could explain. You know the problems.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 26:32
But it's very hard. What can you do? And there's not a lot you can do about that. So I think if they're really, really clever, probably best not to go on there because they're going to try and use it against you.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 26:45
It's really difficult, but in the main, you know, um, most narcissists are, can be held accountable. I would say, um, on our family wizard. So it's, it's a good thing, um, you know. So I mean. Another thing that they, um, that they do you were using the children is they can use, they can control, um, they, they can use them to exert control. So of course, they can bad mouth the other parent to the children, and they do that all the time name calling, you know, ridiculing them, claiming that they've taken all the money. I mean all of that. That's bog, standard behaviour. You know people have on their parenting plans. Will we agree not to, you know, denigrate each other in front of the children? Wow, you know, you might just get rid of that clause, because they're not going to, they are going to denigrate you, I mean, they just are.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 27:27
And that can go as far as parental alienation, where the child actually believes it and then starts not wanting to see the other parent. And that happens all the time. And you know I do, I'm not. You know these people say the time. And you know I do, I'm not. You know these people say, oh, parental alienation, it's a pseudoscience, you know, forget, you know it happens. I mean, I don't care whether it's, you know, forget about the guy that you know made up the term and whatever, forget all of that.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 27:50
You know, narcissists alienate the children from the other parent and they can do that to an extreme extent where the children no longer wish to see the other parent and that is extremely difficult and that's a wonderful way to exert control. And also, you know, they'll want to try and increase their time with the children. You know they often, they usually want 50, 50, even when they've had no interest before, and that's a great way to punish their ex, so that they see them less. And, of course, reduce child maintenance maintenance because you know, um, it's not payable if you're 50, 50, um, and regardless actually of income discrepancies, which makes no sense. Um, that makes absolutely no sense and that's kind of part of the financial abuse piece with that um, they'll do things like um, trying to gain favor with the children, but by um, you know, puppies, kittens, they'll, they'll buy puppies and kittens to get the children by. You know, puppies, kittens, they'll buy puppies and kittens to get the children to want to spend more time with them, bribing them, they'll stir up things by not allowing the other parent to travel with the children and they have all sorts of excuses they won't return the children's passports on time, or that. I mean all sorts of things, things they'll object to travel, um, they're going to make false allegations, um, about the other parent, to the police that's.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 29:08
I mean, it's really common to social services sexual abuse allegations even, um, uh, they triangulate, as I said before, but they do this in a horrific way, long term, with they can copy, they'll copy social services and the headmistress of the school, the police, the judge, the you name it, everyone that's involved in the case, and they'll copy them all into you know, ranting emails, um, making allegations, um, um, and they do things like they make school applications as well, so that you know the child. That's a huge one, by the way, if you are, if you're, if you split up with a narcissist, you've got to a point where the school has to change, expect chaos, basically. So there's going to be school applications so that the child goes to school which is really close to them. It doesn't matter what the child actually needs, whether that school is any good for them. It just doesn't matter what the child actually needs, whether that school's any good for them. It just doesn't matter, um, and I've already mentioned this, the schedule, briefly. But they, you know, they, they try and put events in with the children on your time. Or, you know, extracurricular activities, um, on your time. So you've got to go to judo with felix, you know, even though all of a sudden and probably pay for half of it.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 30:21
Um, I had one who organized helicopter rides, which I thought was brilliant. Helicopter rides at Christmas, it was like some Santa helicopter ride thing on the mother's time, you know, I mean, it was really hard to say no to that, really hard. The children were dying to go, they were only little, but she, she did actually say no, she meant because it was on her time, feeling terrible about it, and she stood her ground, but all sorts of things as well. So, as I say, my, my, my family members are coming over, so you've got to change the schedule. They're going to frustrate contact with the children.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 31:02
Boy, did we see that with covid? Oh my god, you know, claiming the children are ill, changing plans at the last minute, just trying to change the agreed schedule all the time not returning the children. Um, I've had one person do that on christmas day not return the children, the mothers, you know, at the gates ringing and ringing and ringing. This a very posh person, so they had electric gates ringing, you know, and he wouldn't, he just wouldn't answer, wouldn't let her in, just wouldn't let her pick up the children on Christmas Day, as per the order, the court order.
Tamsin Caine: 31:32
And of course, on Christmas Day they know that there's nothing can happen because lawyers can't be contacted. You know, everything is shut down.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 31:40
They don't do anything anyway on that. Yeah, yeah. And even if they could contact the lawyers, they're still not going to get the children back on Christmas.
Tamsin Caine: 31:49
Of course not, but Christmas Day is the time to do that, when nobody is available to help them and to move that forward, yeah,
Dr Supriya McKenna: 31:57
and you can say how it's really thoughtless of you to be, you know, as they're interrupting the day.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 32:04
they, they really like the amazing presents. I bought them. They just wanted to play with them. They just wanted to play with the electric car or that, you know, whatever, the sort of amazing thing that they, that the person, had always wanted, the lavish gifts you know, um, I mean, I've had them actually refuse to open the door for the other parents.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 32:22
You know, like on normal days when they come to collect the children, obviously lateness, picking up and dropping off, you can't do anything about that. I've already mentioned, you know well, actually, no, I haven't mentioned this but taking the children away. So they'll collect the children from school early on certain days perhaps when they're not their days to have the child and the school can't do anything about that because they have parental responsibility, so they're, you know they can't stop them from taking the child if it's not on a day which is in the schedule. I've also had a child actually it was nursery and a child was actually the narcissist.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 32:58
Again, a father in this case grabbed the child from the mother and ran off with the child he was about three at the time making a scene taking him back to his house, even though there was a non-molestation order in place with a power of arrest on it, the police said they couldn't do anything about it because it was to do with child arrangements. I can tell you now, three years down the line, there have been multiple breaches, um, of that non-molestation order, which has been documented every single time, and he is now being charged. So you know that that is important, um, to know that. You know you've got to keep, you've just got to keep, keep on the ball with it.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 33:38
Yeah, yep, keep fighting. I'm afraid, um, yes, it's going to give them narcissistic supply. But keep fighting, you know, because you have to pick your battles here. Um, and another one that I had oh, it was the same guy actually, he would call that. He turned up to the, the mother's house, and call the child through the letterbox on times which went, oh, come and see me. You know, daddy misses you. Um, oh, please come and see me. I mean, oh, you know horrific, you know so, yeah, and then of course, there's fine. So that's all emotional abuse. There's more. I mean, I go through it all in detail in in the book, obviously, but, um, financial abuse.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 34:12
The children are great weapons of financial abuse. They can stop paying for their education, for their extracurricular activities. They can refuse to contribute to school trips, the dentist, tuition, extra tuition, you know. Musical instruments, learning, disability assessments you know that's another huge one. I mean they can take money directly from the child.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 34:36
I had an narcissist accuse the child of breaking something, something minor, I mean, in in the house and saying you will need to bring me your piggyback bank, um, so that I can take the um, the money from it next time you, you come here and he wrote a message to the mother saying the same thing and that the money in that piggy bank was money that he was getting from his maternal family. So it was just, you know, gifts every time the grandparents or uncles and aunts. So it really he was trying to take that Unbelievable. Of course they refused to contribute to university costs. They will do things like destroy school uniform or refuse to return it. They'll say it's disgusting.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 35:17
Those shoes are a disgrace. How could you put Felix in these shoes to go to school? You know I've put them in the bin and and and he's going to come home in in slippers or without shoes and you know need to get some new shoes for him. Literally his school shoes have gone. All you know. The jumpers we had, the. How horror, awful to send him into school with frayed sleeves on his jumpers. They weren't frayed, they were brand, brand new. She could prove it. You know, stuck in the bin, not replaced, she had to buy them again. You know, same thing with toys. They might take toys over. So again, there's this thing. We agree that you know toys can move freely between the homes.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 35:54
Okay, on your parenting plan, not a great idea, I mean I think the teddy bear you know they sleep with but otherwise you know not everything else. You know they're going to have to duplicate that stuff. They'll do things like they'll make sure the child, if they're on holiday with the child, they'll make sure the child loses things. You know doesn't pack clothes, expensive things, trainers. You know I've had iPads lost on holiday, charges for laptops, all sorts of things and they've just pitched up without this stuff and the non-narcissistic parent has just had to. Just they've refused to reimburse them, so they just had to just stump up the new stuff.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 36:37
And of course I've already mentioned the school issue. But it's huge and a weapon of financial abuse as well. So I've had people apply, without telling the other parent, for the child to go to private school, boarding school, theatre school even though the child wasn't particularly theatrical. And boarding school and theatre school, of course that's, you know, that's boarding, so that they're not even at home. It reduces their time with the other parent to punish the other parent and they've tried to get the other parent to pay half or for all of it if the other parent has more money and they've taken the standard for them to take the child to see a new school. You know the boarding school with 200 acres and the equestrian facilities. You know when they're at a normal state school, and of course they're going to go oh my God, yeah, you know, I really do want to go to this school and then they try and get the other parent to pay half or whatever it's just awful and they'll enlist the children to take things from your house as well.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 37:36
So be, you know why can't I? You know that Hoover is mine. You know those that you know they'll. Just, I mean that. You know the, I don't know whatever, the, the, the bread makers, mine, you know, bring it. You know you need to bring that with you when you, when you come back from mummies, you know, or daddies, so that kind of thing, and it is abusive. I mean, there's just no, no, two ways about it.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 38:00
And then the worst thing of all, almost, though, is legal abuse, because you think that the legal system is there to protect you, and the legal system will develop, you know, will give you justice and fairness and deliver retribution. It does none of those things, and I'm really sorry, but you know the family justice system. That is a misnomer, it's an oxymoron. It literally makes no sense Family justice system. That word justice should not be in there, because I rarely see justice, I have to tell you, and of course I only deal with narcissists, so I have a very skewed view. So perhaps there's justice in other areas, but you know it's this type of situation where the legal system actually is needed the most, you know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 38:53
And yet it's not fit for purpose and that really annoys me. And you know you can see why I'm not a big favourite with many lawyers and you know you can see why I'm not a big favourite with many lawyers because of this view. But I need to warn people, because they go into this thinking that they're going to be saved and that you know everything's going to be OK because their lawyers and the judges are going to do the right thing. So they're going to be dragged in. I've already said they're going to be dragged into mediation repeatedly, but that's going to be a thing. And because now the expectation is that you have to try out-of-court dispute resolution methods before going into the court system, they can use that against. Well, we offered mediation, we offered arbitration, but she said no or he said no, it's not going to work, it's going to be toxic and it's just another way of a drawing you back into spending money and b you know, legally abusing.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 39:45
You see it's financial abuse, legal abuse and emotional abuse in one hit there
Tamsin Caine: 39:49
yeah, I've seen it used to to create delays and more financial spending as well. So so, oh, yes, absolutely we should go to mediation. We should use um, an out-of-court dispute resolution, and please don't get me wrong, I am all for non-court dispute resolution for the right people, which is lots of people, it's most people, samson it's most people.
Tamsin Caine: 40:17
Where there is a narcissist, they're just using it to cause delays, to create narcissistic supply and to get the other, the spouse, to spend more money. And it's unbelievable how long it can it can be. It can go on, and on, and on, and on, and um, nobody says actually we're not making progress.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 40:44
We should stop this yeah, I mean it's just appalling because you know the court take all their court applications seriously. I've had um, you know that. So there's the different types of the prohibitive steps orders, um, where they I had one, where that you know they can can make false allegations, for example about your family members, to try to stop the children from seeing them. And a classic one that I had was racism. They said, oh, you know the grandfather's racist, you know, because he voted for Brexit. You know that was not the grounds upon which this was a mixed race child, you know, and this was heard by the court and this poor grandfather's dragged into court. I mean it's just awful.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 41:24
They can try to stop them from receiving treatment, and I keep mentioning special educational needs, but you know this is a huge one. So, adhd medication they will try to stop that or not allow it from from from even starting, or not allow assessments. They can make these prohibitive steps to stop these things from happening. They won't give permission for vaccinations, for example, as well, because they're very often conspiracy theorists. Specific issue applications. So I've already mentioned the school things. Well, they'll make applications saying well, you know, so-and-so needs to go to this school and I'm making an application to the court because my ex won't agree. Holidays is another one.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 42:01
I had one client whose ex wanted to take the child who'd been newly diagnosed with a juvenile arthritis condition very serious to a third world country which didn't have any of the right kind of you know, and it was very good they couldn't have treated it. And there are these awful flare ups where you have to be hospitalized and it was early diagnosis so nobody knew how it was going to progress. But he insisted upon taking the mother to court about that. You know, just to waste money and create chaos and drama. And you know, if you go on holiday as well, you can. I mean they might even make a child abduction claim. You know, against you If you go abroad, to a Hague Convention country. You know, I didn't know about this. This is, this is this is abduction. They need to be returned immediately. And of course, all the false allegations they can make through the court against you, so through the C1A form physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse you know just all of them. And abuse towards the children children as well, they can allege. So there's all of those. They're just vexatious. And then of course, they can keep taking you back to court with the child arrangements um as well. So together to have child arrangement orders varied, changed, there is. I mean, I've had god, I've had people who've had, I know got one client at the moment and I know she's at the 16th hearing.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 43:38
We finally got to the final set of proceedings now, but again, it's been a three-year nightmare and they are applying for a barring order. So a barring order. So this is important to know that barring orders can be made if you apply for them to stop the other party. But usually both parties are barred from from making any application to the family court for whatever two or three years, whatever it is. But they can still make applications. They need the court to give them permission first before they make these applications. And I once had a gosh. I had a. This is a six year post-divorce, maybe seven years actually post-divorce. So the divorce was made final seven years ago. The narcissistic wife ex-wife in this case kept taking the narcissist back to court and so a barring order was made. Yippee, everyone celebrated, you know, clinking of champagne glasses. Then she appealed the barring order.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 44:40
So, she took him to a court to appeal the barring order. That was heard. The court went oh okay, we better listen to this then. So he allowed another hearing to appeal the barring order. That was overthrown. Everybody went, yay, brilliant. So she went to the High Court to appeal the barring order again. To appeal the appeal Again, they went to the High Court.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 45:08
Can you imagine how much this is costing the non-narcissistic partner, the husband? Just a nightmare, a nightmare. And he didn't get costs back. By the way, they should have said no, here you go. You know this is ridiculous, you should get some costs. He didn't. But again. Then they had a whole hearing and the High Court then again dismissed her appeal and the barring order stood. So then she made an application to the Supreme Court and at Supreme Court level they went no, we're not going to hear this, but it had. I mean that. I mean that's what they're like. That's what a narcissist is like. They're not just a bit mean or a bit selfish or a bit vain. This is what a narcissist is like. They're not just a bit mean or a bit selfish or a bit vain.
Tamsin Caine: 45:41
This is what a narcissist is like yeah, and what you've described is not unusual. You know I similarly. I have a client whose case is I think she's on 12th or 13th court hearing. They had barring orders. As soon as the barring's finished, they're back in court again. You know it's just utterly ridiculous. So you know what you describe is, as we said before, it's playbook. You know this is standard behavior. I've never experienced anyone going to the Supreme Court. But generally, keeping the court process rolling, keeping the narcissistic supply, is commonplace.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 46:27
Yeah, and you can see why this mentality it takes two to tango is so wrong.
Tamsin Caine: 46:32
Absolutely In these circumstances. You know very often it does, but you know these are particular behaviors that we're talking about that are associated with a particular personality disorder. So so let's try and spin it a little bit and try and try and get to some positivity. What advice can you give to people who are um, who have children with a narcissist and they need to try to minimize the behaviors that they experience?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 47:06
Okay, so really important to reduce the narcissistic supply that you give the narcissist. So, if I mean because we've talked about the bucket with the hole in it narcissists need narcissistic supply like they need it. They can't function or live without it, so it's like a drug that they constantly need. It's like being a heroin addict and needing constant heroin. You know they need their narcissistic supply constantly, and so what I want people to kind of realise here is that they are almost addicted to narcissistic supply and you are their drug dealer. You are the person they expect to get their narcissistic supply from, because people always feel really powerless in these situations. But you know, it's really important to look at this and think well, hang on a minute, if they're the addict and you're the drug dealer, who has actually got the power in this situation? And it's obvious, it's actually the drug dealer, it's you. It's you the victim. You know it's so important to understand that. You know that's what they want you for. They want you for your narcissistic supply and you don't have to give it to them.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 48:14
I mean, I'm reminded of an narcissist who said to his ex-wife or his wife at the time when she said right, you know, I'm going to petition for divorce. He said I'm going to tell you this, I'm never going to let you be a speck in my rear view mirror and I've quoted that in some of my books because I just think that says it all. You know, that says it all. And he was true to his word. Let me tell you. But we managed, by reducing the narcissistic supply that she gave him, to actually largely get rid of him. And we had the school applications and all of these. We had loads of things, but you know, she was able, over time, to really manage him. So, basically, the point being, if you are consistently able to reduce the supply that you give them over time, they're going to have to go and get it from someone else at some point. That's the's the thing. But unfortunately it does take a bit of acting ability. So you know how you communicate with them is key. Um and I mean I, I go into this in real detail um in in um my book, um of the second in the narcissism divorce series, that's the from leaving to liberty, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, which is like a tome, which has everything in it that you could possibly need, including the whole parenting thing, but um, so, um, yes, I mean I go into communication strategies with examples in great depth, um.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 49:35
But firstly, you know, you, what your aim is to never see them in person again. If you can possibly never see them in person again, you know that's really important. And secondly, if you do have never see them in person again, you know that's really important. And secondly, if you do have to see them, you have to show no fear. So that's the acting ability bit, because you will be feeling fear. So never have video calls with them or phone calls, because if you do, they will be able to gauge your emotional reaction from your voice. You know the slightly shaky voice on the phone or the micro movements on your face. You know on a video call and they're going to get a supply from that and it will give them clues as to how to kind of draw you into a row.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 50:12
If you do have to see them in person, get out of there as soon as you can. Again, if you do have to see them in person like I don't know whatever, a school thing or you know, concert or play or whatever use the grey rock technique. I've got a podcast episode on that. So that might be worth listening to. I mean, it's Narcissist in Divorce. The Narcissist Trap is the podcast, but and again I go into it in the books as well. But the grey rock technique amazing, the grey rock technique. I mean it sounds nuts, but it's amazing.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 50:43
Basically, just in a nutshell, you don't make eye contact with them. When you talk to them, you use the fewest words you can. You have absolutely no expression on your face. I always say you need to turn into Mr Spock from Star Trek. You know he was half, completely wooden. Everybody said he was a terrible actor. But he's probably a really good actor, but acting wooden, but I don't know. So no expression at all, show, no fear, no raised eyebrows, no, nothing, just nothing. And get out of there as quickly as possible. And of course you then haven't given them any supply.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 51:15
Um. Use only one platform to communicate with them on. Um. I I would say email if you can't. I mean our family wizard, if they're kind of. You know, not massively high spectrum, but email is good, but they can, they can alter emails. It's very easy to do if you.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 51:36
I mean I had a case where basically all they did was they. They would respond to the the that the non-narcissistic person had sent. But then you can just, you can just edit that reply that you know the email that's not on your response, so it looks like the chain. You can just edit the chain, um, so that's what they were providing to the court and thankfully, this um it was again, it was a male narcissist in this, this instance but, um, the female um, the mother, the non-narcissistic person, had been screenshotting the emails and she'd been forwarding them, that's right, forwarding them to her lawyer as soon as she got them, so they could see where they'd been changed, but they only. It took a long time to get to that stage of realising that that had even happened, but they could see where, where he'd altered them, and so that was, you know, that was presented to the court.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 52:30
So that's the danger with email. So be aware of that. But it does mean that you can't give an instant response, because we don't want texting, we don't want any of that, because you might be tempted to give them an instant response and then they'll draw you into an argument and then you know, know, you've given them supply, um, so you know, as I've mentioned already, our family wizard or app close um, if they're not particularly clever? Um, because why they work is because you don't have to. Actually, I describe them as being like, um, a corridor with two doors at the end and a notice board in the middle. So basically you're behind one door, they're behind the other door. I mean you can't be both in, can't both be in the corridor at the same time, because your doors are locked at various times. So they can walk in, pin something to the notice board, go back, shut their door, you can come out, read it, pin something so it keeps you apart, basically. So things like schedules and arranging swaps, which you should never do anyway on a schedule, but you can do that. There are buttons to do that and there are requests and there are files that you can upload. So you can upload the children's shoe sizes, for example, or whatever, without all medical reports or school reports, without actually having to go dear. So and so here are the school reports, so you know you don't have to have that contact. So it's, it's really useful, um, in that way.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 53:43
Um, also important. Important is learning how to respond to their written communications, because their written communications are bonkers. I mean, and again, I go through in detail their written communications Everyone will have experienced this because they're ranting, they're accusatory, they descend into word salad, where they make no sense. They use pseudologic where they make no sense. They use pseudo logic where they kind of logicalize things in a kind of completely false way. So you know a plus b very. You know one plus two definitely doesn't um equal three. You know, it's just all nonsensical um to a degree and it leaves you reeling. So, um, learning how to deal with those is really important.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 54:23
And the first step, um, I think this works really well is to copy and paste their message into a five-year-old handwriting font. And there's one called Tommy which I use and that immediately you go oh, oh, I see, when you read it again in this kind of in this font, because it's a child stamping their feet and having a tantrum and making no sense, and so those ranting accusatory threats, you know that you're getting make much more sense in the context of that um, and you know, only respond to what you absolutely need to um, and it just it would. So it's just the logistics for the children, that's all you're responding to. So don't jade right, don't justify, don't argue, don't defend yourself, don't explain, even if other people are reading me, but you've got to tell him that no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do it. Don't do it. Do it if you have to because you're in court proceedings, but only to the level that you have to for court proceedings. Otherwise, know, just, um, just don't engage with any of that nonsense. And you know you can.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 55:27
If you can find something to agree with and do so. You know, you know we are agreed that the children deserve better, or the children deserve you know, you know they are. We are agreed that the children are great or whatever it is that the narcissist has put in in in their, their email. Find if you can find something to agree with, no matter how banal and meaningless it is, that the narcissist has put in in their email. Find if you can find something to agree with, no matter how banal and meaningless it is, then agree and use collaborative pronouns as well, because that can kind of sometimes with a lower spectrum narcissist, that can kind of just smooth things over a bit. So we I mean use we and us. You know we are agreed that pickup will be at four. You know that kind of thing Use the fewest number of words A lot of people have heard of the BIF technique brief, informative, firm and friendly.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 56:18
Take that friendly out, throw that in the bin, don't be unfriendly. But with a narcissist you don't need to be friendly unless you're in court proceedings, and then you might want to just warm up the tone of I'm not saying be unfriendly, I'm saying just be very matter of fact. You don't need to go hi, how are you? Thank you for your email, smiley face, none of that. And and if you're in court proceedings, though, and these communications are going to be shown, just warm up the tone slightly. You might want to put a smiley face emoji or you know whatever. Um, just be a bit more. You know a bit warmer, um, but yeah, I mean that that's, that's important, it's really important, and before you send anything, you might want to get a friend to check it and uh, or you might want to wait a few hours before you send it and make sure you take out any heat from your communications, any anger, any fear, any outrage. A great tip, actually, that people are doing now is they're putting their messages through um, uh, into ai, into chat, gpt, and saying could you make this a gray rock, you know, and so that's quite useful as well. So, you know, I recommend doing that.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 57:17
Um, when you are responding, make absolutely sure you use no emotions. I wish that lawyers would do this as well, actually, in their responses to the other side, because they do things like. You know, my client is outraged at blah, blah blah. My client is saddened that your client is blah, blah blah. My client is disappointed that blah, blah, blah. You know that's an emotion that's giving the narcissist narcissistic supply. You put that in a message. Even my client is disappointed and that means that they're going to go oh good, right, that's, that's what I was aiming for. I'll do some more of that then. You know that is not. You know the way to respond to a narcissist. So remove all emotions from it. Um, and yeah, I mean it would be great if lauren has understood that as well.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 58:02
And the other thing is, you know it's really easy when you get because you will get they will send you the occasional reasonable sounding message and you will think, oh, oh, maybe they've, you know, got over this. You know nightmare of being, you know not wanting to co-parent, you know, or they might appeal to your empathy. That's the other way they'll draw you in. They just want to draw you in, get your attention, and then they'll start. Basically, it will all degenerate very quickly into a horrible mess, you know, and if you're writing, if you're when you're writing about, remember you're writing for a judge. You are writing for a judge, um. So whatever you do, make sure that your communications don't make you look bad in court. That's so important, um, so important because they will, even if you don't end up in court and you probably will, to be honest, if you're dealing with an artist, but if you don't, you know, just just, you just need always behave as if you think you're going to end up in court. And the other thing is, you know, pick your battles. They want a reaction from you and you, unfortunately, you may have to accept, you will have to accept some very unfair behaviors from them, but you just have to look at what actually matters and don't let male meaning friends and family members, you know, change your view on that, because they are unlikely to understand narcissism to the degree that you do. So remember this.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 59:19
This is a great metaphor from um, from dr romany. She just you're familiar with dr romany. She's um in the us, it's a british, she's got millions of yeah, she's great millions of youtube videos, amazing. So I always refer people to those um. So she describes it as them wanting it being like a tennis match and then wanting a volley. Basically, um, you know, and you've got to stop that volley. So she says, you know, put down your racket and walk off the course. And I would further add to that and then brick up the entrance to the test course.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 59:50
You know you've just got to get out of there and not go back, basically Because if you are drawn into a battle, you've basically gone back to square one, so you've given them that supply. So really those are my, my tips for communication and, of course, parallel parenting that I mean. Um, it's really important to understand that the only parenting model that works with a narcissist is parallel parenting. Um, and I go into that in in detail in the um, in the co-parenting myth in in that book.
Tamsin Caine: 1:00:19
yeah, absolutely so. You, we've given some tips, we've had some ideas, we've got some advice. We know what to expect now, and I think I think perhaps you've covered this a little but how effective is the family court in dealing with these cases? I'm getting the feeling, from from what you've said previously, that the answer is probably not very. We talked about family justice not really being justice in these circumstances, um, but have you got anything that you want to add on that?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:00:56
yeah, I mean it's not. It's not effective. It will. You'll be roped into proceedings for years, um, you'll be up on the witness stand, treated like you're some kind of criminal, when all you're trying to do is the best for your children. Um, your parenting will be called into question by social workers. You know you'll be, you will be. It's a very abusive system when, um, because, because it becomes a weapon of the narcissist abuse. Basically, so it's not effective at dealing with cases like this.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:01:24
But three years on, eventually, often we do see some justice, but by that time, you know the person can be broken and you know all of this takes its toll and you haven't been a great parent in the meantime. You haven't been able to, because you're, you know, terrified and you've probably got complex PTSD as a result of the three years you spent, you know, in proceedings. So my advice to everybody, everybody, is, when it comes to the children's side of things, please try to stay out of court. Please try to stay out of court. Don't rush into court proceedings thinking that the court's going to see who the problem is and deliver an outcome which protects the children, because, as I've said before, it's not fit for purpose and you are going to have well-meaning friends or family talking about justice and getting justice. And I remember one person saying to me I'm going to fight this all the way and I was just like please don't, please don't fight this all the way through the courts because you know, in terms of the children, because it's really not a good idea. Um, but he was adamant and the was a female in that case and um, yeah it. I mean, yes, he won in in that he got 50-50, but a total mess at the end of it. You know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:02:50
And also you know child arrangement orders aren't really enforceable anyway. You know we've already talked about, you know the child taken from the nursery, pulled out of the mother's. You know the police don't do anything about it. If the narcissist is late picking them up or picks them up when they shouldn't, you know the police don't get involved. It's child arrangements, it's not criminal, it's child arrangements. That's for the family court. That's what they will say. And you know you get a child arrangement sort of, and it says in bold you know, if you don't comply with this you might be sent to prison. They never send anyone to prison, ever, and narcissists seem to instinctively know this. They don't send people. The family court does not send parents to prison, because it's not in the best interest of the child to have a parent in prison. So it's just all you know. Blather, quite frankly, all this, you'll be sent to prison, you know, nonsense and narcissists don't comply with rules anyway.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:03:43
Narcissists don't comply with court orders and rules because the rules and laws don't apply to them. So you know that that's. That's a really important thing to do so before just jumping in and thinking, oh my god, this is a nightmare, I'm going to go to court about the children. Try the methods that I've sort of gone into, briefly gone into and just now, like about reducing supply and communication tactics and parallel parenting try that first. You know, because if you go to court, the there is a presumption of contact. There is a presumption still that contact with both parents is better for the children and that it's kind of better for, even with an abusive parent, that it's better for the child to see them than to not see them, which is why rapists and murderers are allowed to see their children. You know, even paedophiles can see their children. You know, convicted paedophiles now think have their parental responsibility removed from them automatically, but they can apply to have it brought back. So you know, it's really not good at all, you know. So, yeah, so the harm report, which was done in 2020, showed basically the deficiencies of the family justice system when it comes to abusive relationships and child arrangements and talked about this presumption of contact being better than not having contact and really very little has been done since that came out to change things. So the social workers judges they still go along with contact being better and it being harmful to not have contact with an abusive parent, when in fact it's harmful to have contact with an abusive parent. But if the powers that be don't know that, you know you're in trouble. And also, I have to say there's been a massive study from the US and it looks like it's similar here, but we don't have lots of data yet. But basically, you're the mother and you make allegations of abuse against the father, particularly of sexual abuse towards the children. You're at risk of the father defending himself by alleging that you are engaging in parental alienation. So you're alienating the children and it's quite likely that he'll be believed. It's quite likely that he'll be believed and I'm afraid we often have cases where they apply to have transfer of residents to the care of that father and it is gender biased, by the way. So I mean in this case it is when a father goes in and says she's alienating me from the children in and and says she's alienating me from the children. There's a. There's a study on this. It's by maya m e m e a I e? R? Um in america, long-term retrospective over 10 years. They looked at the, the data um, and there was a, I think a 50 more. I can't remember the actual figures, but there was a massive risk, huge um that, that um that you would, if you were the mother, you would lose um custody, as they call it in america, of the children um, with the children being transferred into into his care, even in cases where it's been shown he was abusive um.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:06:55
But having said that, um it also, in many cases false allegations against men are believed and I I mean that is a huge thing. I see so many men. Probably 30% of my clients are men, maybe even 40%. Now I don't go with this thing. That is so completely black and white. That's out there that all men are the abusers and all women are the victims. You know, I'm sorry, but when it comes to narcissism, that is wrong and that really bothers me, because we've got a lot of high profile people alleging that and it's it's just totally harmful and actually um. You know, the court badly lets down parents in this regard and I have to say so.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:07:39
I was contacted um a few years ago by a client and I just had a one-off session with this client and he wanted to know if his wife was a narcissist and he provided me with loads of evidence and the behaviours He'd been weaponising the family court massively against him. And I was contacted by his family early this year. He died by suicide and his note. He carefully thought about this and everything was in the note that he left, all of the family courts and police issues that she'd been believed hadn't um, you know, she'd alleged that he was the abuser. I mean, he just was not and just no way. And um, of course he wouldn't have killed himself, would he if he was. Um, for starters, um, but um, just a dreadful situation. So I wish that people would understand just how serious this is. You know, if suicide because an office wants to annihilate you, they want to annihilate you emotionally, physically, spiritually, you know, financially, on every level, and sometimes they succeed, you know, and the court and the police enable that, so you know. But with all of this, you know, and the court and the police enable that, so you know. But with all of this, you know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:09:08
So try and stay out of court, but so often you're just dragged into court, you know, and there's nothing you can do about it, and I'm sure you've seen that over and over again where the person does not want to go to court, yeah, yeah. So what can you do then? You know and here again you will get really poor advice generally from your lawyers. Unfortunately, I have to say this you will be told no, no, what you need to do is just appear to be the cooperative parent. You know you need to demonstrate that. You know you can co-parent with this person and you know you'll just be reasonable and you will give and give and give and they'll make these allegations and you know you just have to defend yourself and that's it. You know Well, no, if you get dragged into court and allegations are made about you false allegations are made about you fight. You will have to and not only do you have to fight by defending yourself.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:10:03
I'm afraid you will need to go on the offensive, because you already know what your narcissistic ex is like. You know. You know you've got a load of things that they've done, and so you will have to go on the offensive and your lawyer will have to go along with this, I'm afraid. I mean they will tell you not to, most likely, but it's not going to work. They will think, oh, it'll all blow over. It'll all blow over, he's just a bit annoyed or she's just a bit annoyed, you know, once they calm down, it'll all blow over. It doesn't blow over with a narcissist, I mean, that's the important thing, you know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:10:34
And if you don't stand up to them early in the process, they're just going to continue. Your client, you know, and you know 16 I've got, you know, they'll just continue to litigate. They need to be told, you know. Yes, it's giving them narcissistic supply to go and fight them. But better done early than later, I think.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:10:59
And also, if you're going to do that, you have to realise and you will be in a right state, and so you will think well, my lawyers will be able to build a case for me and gather evidence, because I'm spending £450 per hour plus the VAT or whatever it is more in many cases on that, you know. So that's what they do. It isn't what they do. They'll help me with my statement, maybe, but it won't be very good often because they won't know the ins and outs of your case and they won't know what bits to pull out to show to the judge.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:11:26
And, with the evidence, the WhatsApp messages, the emails, all the things you need to look at and I've got a massive detailed breakdown of exactly how to gather your evidence for you know, if you are drawn into the court process, exactly where to look and exactly how to do that, because your lawyer will not do that for you look, and exactly how to do that, because your lawyer will not do that for you. Um, so you have to do that, um. And also, I think I have to mention it's really important to not withhold the children's contact with an autistic parent unless you have got a very provable, very good reason to do so, such as physical or sexual abuse. You know bruises. It has to be really, really obvious, otherwise, of course, you can be accused of alienation and lose the children.
Tamsin Caine: 1:12:11
My client was told essentially it's going to take a broken bone to one of her children before before the parent is the narcissistic parent is stopped from having uh access being from sharing.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:12:26
Yeah awful and you have to have to throw your child into the lion's den and knowing that they're not going to be, you know they're going to be unsafe around swimming pools, they're going to be. You know it's burnt, um, sunburnt when they come really badly, like everything's flaking when they come back from holiday because they didn't bother with. You know sun cream, that they're not going to wear cycle helmets, that the narcissist is going to drive like a maniac around blind corners. You know, with the children in the car, I mean, you know you have to give your children to this person in parallel parenting and just basically cross your fingers, shut your eyes and pray. You know, every time you let them go and you have to accept that, you know it's awful, it's awful. So you know, and you can't make them do any of those things and knowing that they're not doing, if you tell them do this, they'll just go. Oh great, she doesn't like the fact that I don't use cycle helmets. Well, definitely not doing that again. Then you know I'll throw the one I have got in the bin, you know, you know. But I think another important point if you are dragged into the court system is you know you're going to be. You're going to have to see CAFCAS so they're the kind of court appointed social workers essentially, or a social worker from the local authority Record them, record your conversations with them.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:13:48
You can tell them that you're recording them. You don't have to tell them you're recording them. You ought to really. If you're going to use um, the um, you know the recordings in court, um, they will try and say, well, she recorded me. They'll probably put that in their report. But you know you can say, well, I'm doing it because I'm I can't think straight at the moment and I just want to remember what was discussed. You know that's a reasonable thing to do and you know. And if you have to record them covertly, then record them covertly, just do it. Because I mean, there's lots of guidance on covert recordings, probably looking at the worth, looking at the family justice council, fjc council's advice on covert recordings, which has recently been updated. So if you google that it'll come up, um, but you know still, you know I really do suggest that you record them because you might think, oh, they were really sympathetic towards me. Good, you know, they get, they've understood what's going on, brilliant. Then they meet the narcissist. They're charmed, you're the perpetrator. All of a sudden, you know, and the report that you get is very different to what they said they were going to write and lots of things have been wrong. There are always irregularities and things that are just plain wrong, but also there are things, important things, that they have completely missed out. Never speak to a social worker or a CAFCAS officer on the phone or in person or remotely without recording I can't give you, I can't emphasise that more strongly, because the chaos that it's caused you know and you know.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:15:22
Finally, on that, through the courts, really, with advice, if you are going to get a child arrangements order through the court, so the bit which says how time is split between parents, make sure it's really detailed, really detailed. Like granular detail over detailed, people might think, but any loopholes will be exploited by the narcissist. And I give an example plan in my book. So there's a plan in the co-parenting myth and also the book From Leaving to Liberty the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's the same plan, basically, and you'll see just how I just close down all the loopholes so that everything is detailed, because that's what you need.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:16:04
Uh, otherwise I'll just mess around um and um. I mean, they might not stick to it. They might stick to it to start with and then muck around with it, but you know, but at least you've got it so that you can. You'll get some respite from their behaviors. You'll get probably a year of respite, possibly longer if, depending on where they are on the spectrum of narcissism. You, you know how badly narcissistic they are. But yeah, that's really, that's. That's that's really. Those are my tips, I think, for the court process.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:16:31
In a nutshell
Tamsin Caine: 1:16:33
, A lot to take in. There's a lot to take in. We are coming to the end of our time together. I just just one final question, if that's's okay. Can you just explain a little bit? You've mentioned, um, your clients. Can you just explain briefly what you do, how you work with people, um, and and what that process entails?
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:16:57
yeah. So I work with people remotely, so usually via zoom or once I get to know them on the phone, I I also do crisis calls with them when I know their situation. You know, I can communicate by WhatsApp and because I have, you know, long term and quite often long term clients who are being pulled through the system, and so essentially I can, there's all sorts of things that I can do. I mean, obviously I can explain the behaviours to them, but more useful really is being able to, because I know what's coming next, essentially because I know when they're gaslighting the court or trying to gaslight their ex or their ex's lawyers, I can. I know where to look to find holes in everything that they're saying. So that's the first thing I can help them gather their evidence, for which their lawyer won't do. So I can help them with their witness statements, essentially gathering the evidence from their witness statements and just helping them, because they're all over the place. I can just. I write at speed so I can kind of get them, I can just put it into a good order for them. So I'm not writing it for them, but I'm, you know, getting all the bits and perhaps saying well, have you thought about this or what about that, or did you have any evidence about? What evidence have you got? You know, just guide them in the process that they can get everything together for witness statements, which is really really important, witness statements, which is really really important. So, as I say, I don't actually write the witness statements for them, but I just kind of help organise them and that's really a key.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:18:29
But then, just managing the daily things, they get that awful message on our family wizard. They don't know what to do, they're thrown into a panic and I will do their responses for them. I regularly respond. I mean, just last week I had someone try and get a child to apply for a school that was, you know, next door to where she lived and out of. It wasn't a normal time to move the child and I shut that down. That's one where there's a barring order so she can't apply to court. And since they've been out of the court system, I mean she managed to pull him back into financial proceedings because she, you know, but since they've been out of the court system, with with um, with the children, um, I've done his responses and he's been absolutely amazed. He can't believe it.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:19:12
He thinks I've got some, you know, psychic ability because you know I've just written back for him and I write you know, he, he does, he writes his response and then I tweak it basically to make to take all the heat out of him, to turn it into a very kind of boundary response and she's left with nowhere to run, basically. So so I just shut her down over and over again. So I do that kind of thing, so just responding to their messages, and sometimes there's no need to respond, you know, because it's just going to give supply, but we build a case through correspondence with against them, basically. So, cause we know it's going to end up in court, so we wait. We build a case responding in exactly the right way, so that, so that we're building a case, essentially helping them to not be, you know, overly emotional, but I mean. So that's kind of largely what I do, and I do work with solicitors directly as well, so I can be in on the meetings with the solicitors and often also with council, so with the barristers, depending on the lawyers. Not all of them think it's relevant to have me there, but you know, I think a key function I perform actually is, um, that I because a lot of people have got complex ptsd, which means they're thrown into this, they can't think straight because they're thrown into panic all the time and fear, and it's just you can't, um, you can't think straight, and I go into how to deal with that.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:20:37
Actually, in fact, my latest podcast episode is on how to deal with fear, so I've just put that out so that might be useful for people. But I become their thinker basically in those meetings. So the lawyers hate it because I kind of ask all the questions that they should be asking, but they can't think to ask and they go. I feel like I'm talking to Supriya rather than the client, you know. But you know it's like well, never mind, get over yourself.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:20:59
You know what's the answer and of course I'll then I'll be jotting everything down and the client will then be going what's, what was that about that again, and what did they mean about what? And what was the thing about? Because, like again, they're going round and round in circles. They can't remember and their lawyer doesn't really know how to deal with people like that. You know, they think that and they'll use jargon, of course as well. Um, the lawyers will, and and they're not really explaining the system. So my role is to kind of explain things and basically I dance around the, the, um, the whole thing, and I'm like, basically I like to describe it as playing three-dimensional chess um, because that's what the narcissist is doing. They're playing three-dimensional chess.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:21:38
Everyone else has got a blindfold on except me, so I'm playing them at their own game, essentially
Tamsin Caine: 1:21:44
yeah, we'll put your contact details in the show notes so that, if anybody does need your help, that they can contact you um, along with links to your books, um, which are, I think, all available on Amazon.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:21:59
Yeah, they're all on Amazon.
Dr Supriya McKenna: 1:22:00
There's some audio books as well, um, pdf versions of the book, because you, very often people don't want the physical, you know, they don't want it on the bedside table or, you know, because if they're having to live in the same house, even though they're separated, um, so, yeah, I've got pdf versions of the book, um, they can just put on their ipad or whatever, or phone um on my um available to get from my website. If you've got a kindle, you can buy the kindle version from amazon as well. Um, and I am going to be doing audiobooks. I've got one audiobook out at the moment available from audible, but I'm going to be doing audiobooks and making them available from my website, I think, as well, because that's really useful for people, because they can listen when they're, you know, you know driving around or you know they've gone out for a walk or whatever, and the narcissist, you know, through headphones, so the narcissist won't know that they're um, they're listening, so it's um, perfect, that's. I'm trying to make it as convenient as possible for people.
Tamsin Caine: 1:22:55
Yeah, absolutely completely agree, Supriya. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so so much for your time. I'm sure that our audience will find that incredibly useful. Thank you for joining us and we will see you next time.
Tamsin Caine: 1:23:13
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group, and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.