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Marcie Shaoul
Marcie is a trailblazer in co-parenting. She’s the founder of the award-winning The Co-Parent Way and author of The Co-Parenting Method: Six Steps to Raise Happy Kids After Separation and Divorce (Penguin, 2025). In 2016, she launched the UK’s first dedicated co-parent coaching practice, bringing this vital support to separating families across the country.
A certified coach known for her clear, compassionate, and results-driven style, Marcie has helped thousands of separating parents learn how to co-parent with confidence. She developed The Co-Parenting Method, a step-by-step approach that transforms post-separation communication—and she now offers it both in-person and as an accessible online course.
Before launching her coaching career, Marcie led high-level communications teams in the international civil service, advising senior officials and diplomats at Foreign Minister level. She has worked with Buckingham Palace on a high-profile communications initiative for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, and alongside global changemakers such as Desmond Tutu, Sonia Gandhi, and Terry Waite.
Where it’s safe to do so, every child of separation has a right to parents who can still be parents - together.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it by scanning the QR code…
(The transcript has been created by an AI, apologies for any mistakes)
Tamsin Caine: 0:55
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast. I'm very honored to be joined today by the very fabulous Ma Shaoul, who, I cannot believe, has just informed me that we've never had her on the podcast before, so I don't know what I've been playing at. But huge apologies for that, because she is amazing. I've been a huge fan for a long time. has just released her I think first book, which is incredible and I have at home and I'm about three quarters of the way through. It's absolutely brilliant. And if you haven't got it, go get it. She also runs a co-parenting program, so today's conversation is going to be everything to do with, um, co-parenting or or not co-parenting, if you're finding that you have a, a parent on the parent who's parenting with you but isn't particularly into co-parenting, or not being very compliant or helpful or willing, we'll talk all about that as well. So, , welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me.
Marcie Shaoul: 2:05
Thank you so much for having me. I can't believe we haven't done one together, but I'm really happy to be here and that was a really lovely introduction and I'm blushing
Tamsin Caine: 2:12
She's really not.
Tamsin Caine: 2:15
If you have a look on YouTube, you'll see she's not, she
Marcie Shaoul: 2:18
Feels like I am
Marcie Shaoul: 2:20
And I'm really glad you're enjoying the co-parenting method book. I'm really, really pleased it's yeah, that has been a. It's been a hell of a year.
Tamsin Caine: 2:29
It has been a hell of a year and it was a hell of a launch and there was so much on LinkedIn about what an incredible book it is. If you are interested in buying it, we will put a link in the show notes so that you can get on Amazon and get that ordered, because it's very worthwhile. Before we crack on and I feel like I've talked a lot already, but could you just introduce yourself, give us a bit of background about what led you to the work that you do now in terms of the co-parenting method and your business co-parenting way.
Marcie Shaoul: 3:12
Yeah, of course. So I used to work in the diplomatic service and I used to run communications departments and I used to work in the space between governments and NGOs, helping them to listen well to each other and talk well to each other and about, you know, global issues. Sounds very grand, but it was quite. It was quite, quite detailed, but it was. It was really interesting because in that space I started to realise it's not often what we say, it's how we say it, it's the language we use and it's how we listen without assumptions. And I did that for a number of years.
Marcie Shaoul: 3:52
And then, in 2009, I got divorced and somebody passed me the number of a coach, In fact, my best friend, Sarah. She was like take this number, call this woman. I'm like what's a coach? You know, 2009, there weren't coaches really and I called up this woman called Sandra Richardson, who was spectacular, and I had some just coaching with her not divorce coaching or more life coaching, I suppose and in that moment I really learned to take some kind of active decisions, become a bit more courageous, and all the tools I learned with what learned from coaching stayed with me. And so when I left that work in 2013, 14, 15, I can't even remember now, A bit ago, yeah, a while ago, I retrained to become a coach because I thought it was so powerful. And then, you know, because of my own divorce, I was co-parenting and my son was one when we got divorced. He's 17 now.
Marcie Shaoul: 4:53
You know, I kind of put all of those things together the coaching tools, the communication skills, my own experience and I started to think, you know, gosh, I could have really done with something in the early days. You know, it was really difficult. The separation was very emotionally charged it was. You know, we had a one-year-old and we didn't. There was no blueprint, we didn't know what to do and I thought, hang on a minute. You know, I know what to do now and I know what works and I've got this experience and I've got this skill set that maybe I can build something that will help other people. And that's when it was born.
Marcie Shaoul: 5:27
So in 2016, I kind of brought this idea of co-parent coaching into the UK and it was. You know it was. It's always hard to bring something new in, but you know, the landscape was changing in family law and you know people were becoming more and more receptive and I've really seen that over the last decade. Law firms want to want to work in in in ways that cause less conflict, and lawyers want to be more collaborative and more child focused, but there still wasn't a methodology out there. So my one-to-one work that I was doing with clients, you know, kind of morphed and and changed and grew and we launched an online program in 2022. And that has now changed and morphed and grown and we you know I published the book in earlier this year, but I've been working on refining the method for obviously a while before that, and then our online program now reflects the book. So it's a six step process, but I'm sure we'll talk about that in a minute. So that's my very convoluted journey to get to where I am today.
Tamsin Caine: 6:35
You know it's funny, I often think that mothers in particular would make fabulous peace diplomats to go and conquer world peace, because I do think that the skills we have to learn in negotiation and communication certainly set us up well for that so it's I love that you almost did it the other way around
Marcie Shaoul: 7:01
yeah, yeah, you're right, I think we we could do with a few more of us in that space, for sure
Tamsin Caine: 7:07
yeah definitely for for sure.
Tamsin Caine: 7:10
Um, so okay, let's, let's get into the, the nub of co-parenting, because you know, nobody gets married expecting to get divorced, nobody has a child expecting not to live in the same house and parents together, and and I don't know what your view of of co-parenting is, but for me it's about parenting in two separate houses but both, both kind of working together to parent the children as if you were in the same house but but doing it from two houses and sort of retaining that, that family, and it. It sounds dead straightforward, um, and we were likening it before we pressed record to the whole breastfeeding thing. You know, it should be really natural, it should be very straightforward, and it's really not, and people need a lot of guidance. So I don't want to completely spoil it and trash anyone needing the book on your course and trash your anyone needing the book on your course, but just give us a brief outline as to kind of what co-parenting is and how people might start on that route okay.
Marcie Shaoul: 8:24
Well, the first thing I'm going to do is completely agree with you and say it's not easy to co-parent. In fact, it might be the hardest thing you ever do. To work together with somebody that you don't like anymore, you don't trust anymore, who makes you angry, upset, all those things that can come with separation. And yet it is probably the most important thing you can do after separation for your children, right? So you've got these kind of polar opposite things straight away. So it's very difficult to I. You know it's not just something that happens naturally for the majority of us. It's something that takes a conscious decision, takes work. We have to, you know, manage ourselves. We have to manage what we say, we have to kind of not lose our rag at our ex. You know all of these things and and you know, in in a time when you really might be finding life tough, ok, so that's the first thing I want to say. I don't for a minute go yeah, yeah, everybody should co-parent. It's not easy. I've done it for 17 years. We are good now. We are all good at co-parenting, but it's not been an easy journey always, so that I wanted to start by saying that. But co-parenting is exactly as you say, tamsin. It's this idea of working together, continuing to parent together collaboratively after you've separated, regardless of what you feel about each other, right? And it's this idea that obviously it's over in two homes and it requires communication, it requires decision making, it requires respect and that is the definition, really, of co-parenting putting your kids front and center and continuing to parent them together despite not being in a relationship anymore. However, it's not always safe for some people to co-parent and for some people don't. You can't co-parent, right, that I really want to say that as well. Um, nice and early, because it's not for everybody. Um, and there are other things that that you can do. You can do shared parenting, which is where you split your kids time down the middle and you know you don't need to. You can choose to communicate or not. Or there's parallel parenting, where there's very, very little communication and you just do your own thing in each house. That's obviously a very quick summary. We go into it in more detail in the book. You know that's, that's what that is. But if we're here to talk about co-parenting, then it's it's about, and it's important, because if you can co-parent and if it is safe for you to co-parent, what you're doing for your kids and for anybody watching the video. I'll do my little demo. You're creating a nice loop. You're creating a nice loop if you imagine, if you're just listening a loop of elastic around your children, with both of you as the parents at either end, holding that elastic nice and tight around the children, and the children exist in the middle of this co-parental loop, nice and safely. You know their parents are still upholding their end and everything feels nice and safe and stable despite the separation.
Marcie Shaoul: 11:34
Right, kids can recover from a trauma. Yes, it is a trauma when their parents separate, but it's definitely something that they can move through and manage and learn to live with successfully. It's the sustained conflict that is really destructive. So the method is about trying to well, the method is about reducing that conflict and when parents apply the tools in the method and we'll talk about it in a bit that reduces the conflict and that's where we need to get to for the kids. If we're continuously in conflict around our children, it's really, really damaging to them. So the decision that we need to make when we separate is okay. Do you know what? I don't like you my ex. I don't like you. I don't trust you. I don't want to be with you, but I have. We have these children together and that's our most fundamental priority. So we need to somehow find a way through this to be able to continue to, to bring them up safely. So that's, that's why it's what it is and that's why it's important
Tamsin Caine: 12:37
Perfect, perfect summary.
Tamsin Caine: 12:40
And I guess that the hardest point for me about co-parenting feels like the bit during the actual divorce process. Whilst there's all the I'm going to call them negotiations but they're not even always negotiations but whilst you're trying to find your way through the mess that is divorce, working out where you're going to both going to live, working out how the kids are going to see you both, working out the money stuff, there's a lot of emotion flying about during that period. Should people even be looking to start co-parenting from day one, or is it something that comes in later?
Marcie Shaoul: 13:32
Great question. I would say it depends on the circumstances that you're in, on how you found yourself in this situation, but I would say that your children don't stop being your children whilst you sort your stuff out. You know you've got to keep. You've got to keep that in mind. Um, and what I know from my many years of working in this space is um, if there is um, if you have separated in you know difficult circumstances, you know it will often start off as very acrimonious, very argumentative, a lot of confrontation, and then it can ease off okay as we get we as time passes. Um, so if you are listening to this and you are like I could never, I could never do that, we're just not in the space. I would just invite listeners to think into more of a long term frame of mind, because your kids are going to need you to work together to parent them and even though you might feel like you can't do that at the moment, you stay in that short-term mindset of, oh, I hate him or I hate her, then it's going to be really difficult for you to take a step to consciously choose to co-parent later on. So even if you're like, I really don't like you, but I'm gonna still do a bit of parenting with you, even if it's like a step in that direction.
Marcie Shaoul: 14:49
I would say that ideally, you know that's what you should be aiming for. You know it's not perfect. It will never be perfect. Parenting isn't perfect, whether you're together or not. We just need to kind of do it as well as we can. So earlier intervention is what kind of the official term is, isn't it? It is better, if you like, has a good long-term impact, but it's never too late to start. I've worked with people who have not spoken for years when I say years and you know, we get them to a place where they can talk to each other. They still don't like each other, but they don't need to like each other. They don't need to go on holiday to Greece together, they just need some decisions together and for their kids to go oh, do you know what my parents are talking to each other?
Tamsin Caine: 15:36
bonus yeah, absolutely. I think, if I had my time again, I think during the divorce we didn't co-parent at all and although I didn't put the kids in the middle and both of us had the kids sort of front and center, there was so much emotion going around. I just don't think I'm saying, if I had my time again I would try and co-parent from day one. But actually I'm not sure if it would have been feasible. And it's become easier over time the further and further we've got from it. But I think, just to think of some of the benefits that I've had from it are things like we can both go and watch. So our son plays rugby. We'll both be at rugby matches and he loves that. Um, we'll both go.
Tamsin Caine: 16:33
My daughter used to dance. We'd both go and watch her dance shows, both my, so my son's 18th birthday we all went out for dinner with my ex's new girlfriend and her family, with my stepson, who I guess isn't officially my stepson anymore but still is to me because I've been in his life for so long, being able to go to things, be in the same room with your ex. You don't have to want to be with them. I don't want to be with my ex. I'm utterly delighted he's found somebody who makes him really happy, that's brilliant. But being able to be together, all in the same room, with the kids in the same room, being civil to each other, buying each other a drink, you know, those sorts of things are really important and I'm a child of divorced parents and my parents cannot do that. They divorced when I was 12. I'm nearly 52. They still can't be in the same room together and I didn't want that for my some, for my children, because it's still really, it's still really painful and difficult for you, right?
Marcie Shaoul: 17:50
so yeah, and that's the long-term mindset, right there. Right, your parents can't be in the same room together without it being difficult, and for you, how does that feel? Just interviewing you now, but how does that feel?
Tamsin Caine: 18:02
I don't know. Well it's. It's really hard, it's really hard and we we have made decisions, both myself and my sister, that we wouldn't, that we would have made differently had we had parents that were able to be in the same room together. And both myself and my ex didn't want that for our children because we'd both experienced it. His parental situation was slightly different, which I won't go into, but we both experienced it and neither of us wanted that for our kids and I think that impacted how we behaved. But for those people who haven't experienced it as a child themselves, I don't know how easy it is to understand just how much that impacts um people. So so we can do it at any time. We can co-parent at any time. We can start day one of the separation. We we can start during the divorce, if it's easier, after the divorce, we can start then. If you've not spoken to them for several years and you listen to this going, I just want to fix this now because it's a bit of a mess. Where do we start?
Marcie Shaoul: 19:18
It's all about communication, right? So, just talking more generally, what needs to happen is you need to be able to to communicate without conflict, and if you can't do that, you need to go and get the skills, the tools to be able to do that. And just, there is support out there and you need to. I, you need to make an active decision that I want to change this, I want to turn it around, and you need to look at yourself right. You can't change your ex, no matter how much some of us might wish to, can't. So you need to look inwards, you need to go right.
Marcie Shaoul: 19:54
What is it I can do that will improve this situation? So, is it I'm going to stop rolling my eyes at drop off? Is it I'm going to actually, you know, say hello? Is it I'm not going to send the PE kit back dirty? Is it I'm going to send an update after every you know exchange of, you know when you're dropping off and picking up? And so look at yourself. What is one small change that you can make today that's going to improve your situation going forward? Ok?
Tamsin Caine: 20:27
I love that, and so you could be sitting there going. There's absolutely no chance that I would be able to co-parent with my ex because things are so bad that I just don't think co-parenting is an option, albeit all the caveats about it being safe to do so. Um, if it's safe to do so, but you're still like we're just not, we're just not in that space. You're not saying that's not possible, then you're saying make a start and see if you can look inward at some things that you can change about the relationship with the other person to potentially start and move on to this co-parenting journey yeah I'm saying.
Marcie Shaoul: 21:16
What I'm saying is if you go into a restaurant and you're really rude to the waiter and you're like, bring me my food now you know what kind of response are you going to get. You're not going to get a friendly response, you're not going to get a happy response. You know you don't want to imagine that they might spit in your food, but they might spit in your food, right? If you go into the same restaurant and you say you know, good evening, hello, nice to meet you. Thank you very much. You know you're polite, you're going to, you're much more likely to get a more positive response back. So what I am saying is in any interaction, in any communication, what you put out changes and influences what you get back. So actually it's very powerful thing to do to modify your own behavior, to get back what you're. It's very powerful thing to do to modify your own behavior to get back what you're looking for. And if you apply that to co-parenting, some people the amount of people I get on the program where their co-parent doesn't come right, it's probably about 50% of all participants come on their own and you know at the start, you know when you're talking to them about whether they're going to come on the program or not. They're like, well, you know my ex won't do it. And it's like, well you come, because actually, the changes that you make, the boundaries that you learn to set, the language reframes that you will learn to do, the interaction, the control, the listening skills that you get, the self-management stuff that you learn, you know there's 20 practical tools on this program. I'm not going to list them all now, but you know it's game changing. So what you're doing, even if your co-parent won't come on the program or won't co-parent, you are holding it.
Marcie Shaoul: 22:58
Remember that loop I talked about before. You are holding up your side of that loop and even if the other side isn't being held up by your co-parent, you are providing the safe, stable, you know structure for the children. You are interacting with your co-parent in a way that is respectful and, you know, communicative and that goes a long way to showing your children how to resolve conflict, how to show up in conflict, about integrity, about different value systems. That are good, strong messages and that in itself will keep them nice and safe and stable. So you know it's co-parenting with one of you. If you like, you might just be putting it out there and not getting it back, but the impact is still really incredible on your kids, and what I've seen happen quite a lot is one parent will come on the programme and then, lo and behold, six months later, other one goes. Oh, actually, I've seen that my ex has really changed and it's made everything much better, and I would like to learn what they've learned.
Tamsin Caine: 24:05
I was going to ask you that actually I've had success stories like that because it sort of feels like If one of you is prepared to put the work in, then it will start, yes, filtering down, because suddenly you're communicating differently anyway and and things. Maybe there's a move towards being able to co-parent together. So, um, I'm going to put you on the spot bit now, because we haven't I haven't prepared you for this, um, but have you got any examples of, of a really good co-parenting relationships that perhaps started off not so great?
Marcie Shaoul: 24:47
yeah, loads um yeah, we just um the program that we've just finished. So, um, it had a set of parents dad lived in the uk with son and mum lived in the UK, in the US, with two daughters and there. So when they split up it was very explosive. It was highly uh, you know, high level of conflict and mum took the girls back, uh, to the States and the son didn't want to go, so he stayed in the UK with the dad, and you know, so, straight away, you've got a geography problem and a non-communication problem and it was really really difficult. They were not communicating and it was actually the dad that booked on the program, um, for both of them, and, you know, just told the mum with, like I think it was about 24 hours notice. So she came and was very resistant to do it.
Marcie Shaoul: 25:45
No, I did, yeah, and she was like, oh well, I'm not going to do it, I'm going to. Just, you know, anyway they got the level of the programme where there was one-to-one support with me Okay, which is which which was probably quite helpful, I think and within three weeks they were talking. Within three weeks they were having family Zooms which weren't descending into chaos. They are now at a point. They've been, they've tried this is her words, actually, I think about 20 different things and nothing worked for them. They tried mediators, they tried therapists, they tried. You know, the lawyers were probably not being massively helpful because I think they were fueling some of the argument. And now they speak, now they make decisions, now they can co-parent, they plan, you know, and they get on. Actually, it's not just that they're just doing going through the road, they actually get on and it's been really, really good and I've been absolutely delighted with that, because that was a really tricky one. That's just one of many.
Marcie Shaoul: 26:57
I've had parents who, like I said before, haven't spoken for years. They learn the tools. It's harder for them, but they learn how to listen to each other. You know, they generally come when there's a big decision that needs to be made Lawyers are really expensive. It's more cost efficient to go through a program like this and they get the tools that then last them forever. You know, school decisions when they haven't spoke out of parents who hadn't spoken to years, they were making decision about secondary school. They came on the program they, by the time they got to step five, which is how to make decisions, they could make the decision together. You know, it might have been a bit forced and a bit awkward, but it wasn't confrontational and argumentative and I think that's when I say it just needs to be good enough.
Tamsin Caine: 27:38
That's a really good example of that yeah, absolutely, it's like you say, you don't need to be inviting each other around for tea. And there are, you know there are, there are co-parents who do. You know, if you, if anybody wants to have a lesson back, that we've recorded a podcast episode with Catherine and Andy Morgan and Andy Morgan, um, and they have co-parenting like. They're like the five gold star version of it that most of us humans can't even contemplate achieving. But, you know, if you can, if you can have a conversation, if you can make, as you say, make decisions together, I think that's it's hugely valuable.
Tamsin Caine: 28:20
And one of the things that we found valuable was when, um, when our particularly our daughter was a teenager and she used to um ask me because they, so they lived most of the time with me and so she'd ask me for something. I'd say no, she'd go straight to her dad and ask him for it. I mean, it's, the same thing happens if you live in the same house. She went straight to him and asked him. He then phoned me up and went I assume you've said no to this and I was like, absolutely. And he's like don't worry, I'll support your decision and reiterate what you've said. Support your decision and and you know, reiterate what you've said and those sorts of things are the times when and it would fuel the fire if you lived in the same house it's not a different, it's not exactly. It's not a different dynamic just because you live in two houses same thing, that happening, but it feels harder because you're in. Yeah, houses.
Marcie Shaoul: 29:20
I think I think these and you see that a lot it becomes it can become a um excuse probably isn't the right word, but we can kind of attribute the fact that we're co-parenting to difficult situations, right. So, um, you know, if you've got some, a child going through gcses, for example, and they're really, really stressed, you know someone out on the outside looking in might say, well, it's because you know parents aren't together and it's really difficult. But actually, you know you might have the same situation. You probably would have the same situation if parents are together. So it's it's really important to remember that it's. It's it's not the reason for always for difficult situations. Um, and if you can work together, like you just gave that really great example, then it's really important. And why do kids do that? Why do they play us off against each other? Oh my gosh, it's a nightmare.
Tamsin Caine: 30:12
I think they might get a different answer from the parent. But uh, yeah, it's all good. So just a question about we talked very briefly about I don't want to go into a huge amount of detail, but about kind of parallel parenting, where you just can't. You're doing your absolute best, you've done the course you've read the book, your absolute best, you've done the course, you've read the book, your communication is as good as it can possibly be, but the other parent is just in a space where they're just not willing or able to co-parent with you. How do you go about accepting parallel parenting? Because you'll have parallel parenting. You've got your rules in your home and they look like that, and then the kids might go to the other parent's home and then everything's different, the rules are all different. How do you get your head around that? How do you accept that? How do you deal with it?
Marcie Shaoul: 31:23
let's look at it from the kids perspective. Right, so it's really, you know, imagine most of us live in the same house. Right? When you're the child of divorced parents, separated parents, you know you're going from house to house and it's not just the rules that are different, right, it's the cutlery, it's the washing powder that's used, it's you know, how tidy is the house, it's the bowls, it's the smells, it's the. You know one of you has a pet, one of you doesn't. So everything is different. Right, so there's already a period of adjustment when a child has to go from one house to the other.
Marcie Shaoul: 32:01
So what I know works really well is clarity and information, right? So if you, if you can't co-parent, if your ex won't co-parent with you, there's not much you can do apart from everything we've talked about today to kind of have an impact on that. So if you are where you are, you've got to work with what you've got. So let's look so from the kids perspective. They just need clarity and structure. So in your house, you know, you can put house rules on the fridge, you can put chores on the fridge, you can make sure you can ask them. You know what's it like in your other house. Do you prefer that? Let me help you make it like that. Sure, you can ask them. You know what's it like in your other house. Do you prefer that? Let me help you make it like that here. You can support that, you can acknowledge it and you should definitely name it.
Marcie Shaoul: 32:40
You know, for your children I mean depends how old they are, but let's assume they're old enough to understand you can go. Oh, it might be different in dad's house or mum's house. What can we do to make that a bit easier for you here? Mum's house, what? What can we do to to make that a bit easier for you here? What can we modify? Not saying you change everything to match the other house, but I am saying you know, try and try and do small things, tokens, reach out, gestures that make your kids feel like they're being really seen, like that their parent understands that it might be difficult for them. That's how I would answer that. I think
Tamsin Caine: 33:13
I love that that's really. That's really. It's really good to hear, because it can, that I think that can be. That can be really hard when you're, when you have boundaries that you feel like, no, I can't change those boundaries, but there might be some things. Even though you've got your, I'm not, I can't change those boundaries, but there might be some things. Even though you've got your, I'm not, I can't change those because those are hard, fast boundaries for me, but maybe I can do some things around the outside. Yeah, yeah, a little bit more difficult to have that change
Marcie Shaoul: 33:45
.. and name it.
Marcie Shaoul: 33:46
Name it for your children, name it, let them know that you know
Tamsin Caine: 33:49
yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really important because it's acknowledging and it's recognizing and it's it's also allowing them to talk about what happens in the other part of their life, because I think that one of the difficulties is that you have two separate lives almost you do and you're perhaps discouraged from speaking about that one in this house and that one in this house and and and that can that can make things really well, the opposite.
Marcie Shaoul: 34:22
You're pumped for information as soon as you change houses yeah, yeah, all those things are really tricky.
Marcie Shaoul: 34:28
I think so and I think you know, even when you do it well, I think children still have to compartmentalize.
Marcie Shaoul: 34:34
You know what happens in one house stays there, and what happens in the other house stays there. You know I see my son doing that and you know he tries because we talk about it and he's obviously 17 now, so it's different. But you know you don't want to push them for information but you do want them to feel comfortable enough to be open and it's it's kind of a fine line. I don't know that I've always got it right, but, um, or maybe I've gone too far and just let let him decide what he wants to say. And then, so you know, we, we we talk about it quite a lot, um, and we we try and kind of help him understand that it's okay in both houses to talk about it, and the more so he has, you know, four parents effectively now, me and his stepdad and his dad and his stepmom, and we communicate more now really in the last few years than we have before and that helps him. That helps him feel comfortable enough to be open and to kind of swap information.
Tamsin Caine: 35:33
So yeah, Absolutely, and I think another thing that I've that I think is useful is is not stopping them from remembering how things were, like acknowledging that there was a time when you were all living in the same house. I mean, it's slightly different when you had a one-year-old, but mine were, you know, mine were um 10 and 11 or something around that sort of age when when we split up and they do remember like what life was like before, and I think acknowledging you know fun times that you had and remembering holidays that you went on and and things that you all did together is is valuable, because you would do that in a if you were all living in the same house, and I think to let those conversations be still held just acknowledges that it's still valuable. It still means something to you as well. So I think those are things to do.
Marcie Shaoul: 36:33
I think that's right and you know, even in my situation, you know I talk about the relationship. You know, my son's girlfriend now lives right opposite the place where, um, his dad and I had our engagement party, right. So I said to him you know, that's where daddy and I had our dad and I had our engagement party, and you know, like it, not being afraid to do that, I think not, not everyone can do that, but I think if you can aim for just normalizing it, then it's, it's helpful
Tamsin Caine: 37:01
Yeah, no, absolutely, and we are very sadly coming to the end of our time together because really do feel like I could talk to you for hours and I know everybody always says that but I genuinely have so much to so much conversation that I could have with you.
Tamsin Caine: 37:17
Um, is there anything that I haven't asked you or anything you want to add that you feel would be valuable?
Marcie Shaoul: 37:24
oh, um. If you are struggling, I just want to say if you are struggling, buy the book on Amazon, um, or come and book a call with us for free and come on the programme. Talk to us about coming on the programme. We are here to help. We have a framework that works. If you're struggling, we can make it better for you.
Tamsin Caine: 37:42
Yeah, absolutely, and please do reach out because you know, I know parents worry about their kids and how divorce is going to impact them and kids can be okay, they can come out of divorce okay and they are very resilient. But if you can make the whole process even easier by following Marcie's program and getting the book, getting some really good advice, then I would really recommend doing that. We've We've got links in the show notes to buying the book and also to getting hold of Marcie to arrange a call with her to go on her fabulous programme. So just remains for me to thank you for joining me today, Marcie. I've really enjoyed chatting to you.
Marcie Shaoul: 38:27
Thanks so much for having me, Tamsin. I've really enjoyed it too.
Tamsin Caine: 38:30
Wonderful. And and to you if you've enjoyed today's episode, please do give us a five star rating. It does help us to get the podcast out to more people and so that we can we can help even more people. So many thanks and I'll see you next time.
Tamsin Caine: 38:49
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation Divolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. And the one thing I would say do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.