And one of the team will be in touch.”
Estella Newbold-Brown
Estella is a partner and head of family law at the South London law firm, Amphlett Lissimore, and has been guiding and supporting people through their separations for around 17 years. Her specialism is divorce – the financial aspects of divorce, unmarried couples separating, and children work. Estella is a Resolution Accredited Family Law Specialist in cohabitation law, financial claims for children (Schedule 1), and medium-high net worth divorce cases. She also acts for frequently act for high profile clients in the entertainment industry.
In 2024, Estella was an expert contributor to Sarah Wayne’s book, Sperm Not Included - the UK’s most comprehensive baby-making manual for sperm-free couples.
Alongside her work as a family law solicitor, Estella has written two children’s books, the second one being specifically aimed towards family lawyers to provide as a resource for their clients and for parents who are separating to buy and read to their children. ‘Isla and Quinn – The Sunflowers’ has been written from the perspective of not only a family lawyer, but also, Estella is a teenager of divorce, so understands the emotions that a child would feel.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
Tamsin Caine Host
00:06
Something a little bit different on today's podcast. So we're episode 101. I'm not going to say this at every episode, I promise, but today we speak to a fabulous author, Estella Newbold-Brown, who's also a family lawyer and she's written the most amazing book to introduce young children to the idea of divorce and dealing with their emotions on the subject. I'm not going to say anymore, but I really hope that you enjoy this episode and if you have young children or you have friends with young children who are divorcing or family in that position, I think you're going to really like this episode. So let's jump right in. Hello and welcome to episode 101. Yeah, learning about everything from the beginning, I'm delighted to be joined today by Estella Neubold Brown. We're going to be talking about talking to your young children about divorce today. I'm going to first of all welcome Estella and let her introduce herself. So can you tell us a little bit about you?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
01:19
Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me here today. So yes, I'm Estella Newbold-Brown and I am a family law solicitor, partner and head of department at Amphlett Lissimore Solicitors and I have been there for about a year and a half but I've been a qualified solicitor for about 17 years. I'm a mum and I have twins and they'll be for next month and I've really focused on kind of how to deliver information of separating two children since having children, because I think really since having children and actually seeing the different ages and stages, that I've kind of realized the impact of a separation, of what it can have on children, and that's why I decided to write the book to try and pull my knowledge in and help people who are going through separation.
Tamsin Caine
Host
02:19 So tell us more about the book. So what's it called first?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
02:22 So it's called 'Isla and Quinn – The Sunflowers' and I'll lift it up to you, although this is a podcast, so I appreciate that not everyone is going to see it and it's actually the second book that I have published.
02:38
The first one is just a story about how I met my wife and I read it at our wedding and I just decided to have it published and it's very cute and it's got penguins and seals and seagulls in it. And then it's actually after publishing that book, because that took a long time to do. I had to find an illustrator, I had to kind of rewrite the story that I read at the wedding, edit it and then I actually really really enjoyed it as well as doing my job, looking after the twins. It's quite a nice escape for me to be focused on something that I'm really kind of passionate about and I kind of just thought that there isn't anything out there like this book.
03:24
There aren't really resources like this available to parents, and I've got all this experience as a family practitioner and I do want to help people and I just thought it would be a nice idea to have my children in a book. There's a dog, tilly that's actually my sister's dog, so have created the characters around real people and it's just a book about their friend whose parents are separated and how Eila and Quinn help their friend Jenny through the emotions that she has and then talking to their mummy and mama how they can help their friend Jenny. And it's got a lovely section at the back where it's got questions which parents or teachers can discuss with the child that reads the book to help them deal with their emotions. And I also wanted there to be same-sex parents in a book and for that to be mainstream and not to be the main focus of a book as well, and that's something else. I'm kind of looking at writing some more Eila and Quinn books about other topics, but still having a mummy and mama behind the scenes.
Tamsin Caine
Host
04:37
But it's such a beautiful book. It's so beautifully illustrated and just, I think, approaches the topic and divorcing such a a gentle way, without it being focused on fighting or focused on the kind of bad side of the children experience in divorce, because it isn't always about that, and I think that was something that really struck me about it.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
05:09
Thank you, and I do think it's really important because children are made up of half of each parent. So if they see their parents arguing and if there's conflict or if one parent is speaking in a derogatory way about the other parent, that will insult their child without the parents realising. And I think it's really important when parents separate that, yes, they have their own needs, but their needs of their children stand far higher than their needs and they really need to focus on their children because it's a really tough time for them, and I just think about my twins being four. How would you tell them? How would you deliver that information to them? How will they receive that information?
05:56
And sometimes it's just by reading books like this. If you know that you're going to separate at an early stage, it can help your child to understand. So when you then separate from your partner, from your partner, their parent, you can almost kind of refer back to the book. Do you remember Eileen Quinn? Do you remember what they did? Do you remember Jenny said her tummy was sad? Is your tummy sad? And you can just kind of use the book as a resource like that to help children go through this emotional time.
Tamsin Caine
Host
06:30
Absolutely, I think, what struck me more than anything. So I'm a parent of my children are almost grown up, now over the age of 18, but I've they're not. Yeah, anyway, long story. But I'm not sure that even when my kids were little, I could have understood their emotions in the way that you have in the books. Did you have to research, or is it just got for you, on how your children would react?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
07:05
It's a gut for me. I wrote it thinking how would I tell Eileen Quinn this information, also just viewing it from a child's perspective. And I spoke to my sister, who's an English teacher, and I she read through the book and she actually said you know, some of the language you've used in like the first draft was too adult and it was too formal. And she said think about how a child would feel. So I kind of place myself in the position of a four year old, although the books kind of up to eight years.
07:41
I kind of thought about a four year old because that's the age of the twins and that's the age of Jenny and I then thought what would they be feeling?
07:50
So obviously they might have feelings of anxiety, but they're not going to say, oh, mummy, I feel anxious today. They just they recognize and I know that from it in the past because my parents divorced when I was 17 and I had a bit of anxiety then and it's this kind of feeling in your tummy that you can't quite explain. So that's how I then decided to describe it in the book and I know from the feedback that I've had from other people because I went into my twins nursery and I read it to the teachers there and they said actually it's a good book to read to children, just not about their parents separating, but if the child's going through a difficult time or if they're anxious or if they're upset about something, it's a good book to help that child express their emotions. And I think as a society at the moment we're very kind of hot on mental well-being and I think that this book is helpful for young children to express how they're feeling.
Tamsin Caine
Host
08:52
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think the way in which they I think we can give away bits of the book because, I think I'm like, oh, should we give it away?
09:08
it's a bit like Alex saying who's done it in a probably not aimed at our audience. I think we might be alright. I love the way that and that the twins think of something that is going to help Jenny to not feel so sad because she's sad about not spending all of her time with both of her parents, and I love that. She's not bad because she's not. It's not about one of them, it's about both of them and not being with them both. It's not a taking side situation. And then the twin solution to that is just amazing. Is that something you've used? How did you come up with that as an idea?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
09:59
So I guess it's almost a distraction technique that I've learned as a parent. I still do it to this day when my son's having a meltdown. I've learned that you're meant to kind of get them to think about something from the past and use their memory, because it uses a different part of their brain. So just, I'm always thinking, just every you know, stop having a meltdown, we need to get in the car. What can I say? Some flowers are my favorite flower.
10:26
So I've tried to pull in everything from my life kind of into the books that I write. So some flowers are my favorite flower. But I actually thought visually what would look good in a book and what's everyone's seen, everyone knows what a sunflower is and it's also really really positive. But I wanted like a living plant that they could see grow, because if it was just like an object that you know that object doesn't change, you could lose it. But I just thought, with a plant and watching the plant grow, it's actually really nice because that would last a period of time and that's what at the end and again, it's not a spoiler, but the twins draw the sunflowers growing over the period of time that they've had them. So I just thought that that was a really nice concept and also really positive and really happy, just so it's really really positive thing for her to kind of focus on.
Tamsin Caine
Host
11:29
Absolutely. You cannot fail to smile when you see a field full of sunflowers. It's just one of the best things. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I really like also that it wasn't competitive. It's not competitive growing. Whereas you do this with my twins they actually would.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
11:49
If it was their own sunflowers, they'd be like mine's, higher than yours.
Tamsin Caine
Host
11:51
I know it's not, yeah, I think it wasn't going to be about whether mum's or dad's was taller. Yeah, that's a school thing, isn't it? Like who can grow the biggest sunflower? Absolutely.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
12:08
Who can get their pyjamas on the quickest? Who can climb up the stairs the quickest? Everything's the competition.
Tamsin Caine
Host
12:14
Yeah, and that must be the case when you've got twins as well.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
12:18
Absolutely is Every day, but I always win, I obviously always win.
Tamsin Caine
Host
12:24
I would hope so, absolutely. I hope so. So has your experience of being a solicitor helped in writing the book and the other way around has the book impacted the work that you do as a family solicitor?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
12:42
Yes, I would say that it has, because, I mean, I've always been a member of resolutions, I'm always concentrating on there not being any conflict, to be a conciliatory and always putting the children's needs first, because essentially they should be the main focus of a separation, to make sure that they are well looked after and provided for. And Since having children, I would say I think I'm a better lawyer, and I'm not saying that you need to have children to be a great family lawyer, because you absolutely do not, and I've been doing this job for 17 years, so I've been doing it longer not having children than having children. But I would say I'm more emotionally intelligent in terms of kind of how parents feel about their children, because I think maybe before I'd be like, oh, just tell them and I wouldn't realize, you know not as I'm just blushing out.
13:42
I'd be like, oh no, you just, you know, need to tell them, but I guess I would have less experience in how to guide them through that and I'm by no means a parenting expert but through, you know, doing this job for as long as I have and seeing so many different families going through a divorce but guiding them through, I've gained experience along the way.
14:04
So I just think if you can give your clients as much as many resources as possible to make their lives easier through a separation, to make their lives less stressful, but also to make sure that the children are well looked after, that their emotional needs are looked after and it's not going to be high conflict for them, then I just think that's the best thing. So I do think that, you know, writing this book has really I guess it's, you know helped me, made me a better lawyer in terms of what I'm looking at holistically. And then I've pulled on my experiences of being, you know, a teenager of divorce, kind of looking back at how my parents dealt with it and whether or not that was right, potentially was right for them at the time, but I wouldn't say that's how I would want my clients to deal with it or tell their children. So, yeah, so it's been a few decades of experience kind of pointing to this book.
Tamsin Caine
Host
15:08
Absolutely. I think you can tell that. I think what I really like is same as younger children, because there are definitely books out there for older children, for perhaps kind of eight to 12 and then kind of teenagers, but I haven't seen anything that's there for little kids and it's almost the assumption that people don't get divorced until their kids are older, whereas actually it's definitely not the case. So we have lots of clients that we work with. You know it could be a matter of months after the child's born that sadly the relationship breaks down and you know that's awful. But I think you do need something. You know obviously going to use your book with some of the children six months old, but I think it is relevant from a very young age, as soon as they can kind of understand what's going on.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
16:01
Yeah, absolutely, and I do think that there is. There tends to be a focus on older children because I think people think that they know what's going on and they understand it, but actually younger children are really queued up. They know what's going on. You know, Eila and Quinn were bought some chocolate. They knew that Grandma Sue bought them that chocolate and I tried to hide it so they couldn't couple of weeks later they're still asking after the chocolate.
16:30
So you can't actually fool them. So, as much as you know, parents think, well, we won't tell them or we will just separate and they'll just learn from that. I would say that that isn't the right way to go about it because they will pick up on things. And when you know, couples say well, we want to stay together for the sake of the children and just stay together until they're at 18 or something. Actually, my advice is well, I don't think that that's necessarily the right thing for your child, because they look at you both as role models as parents.
17:03
And if you're sleeping in separate bedrooms or you're, you know, on the other ends of the sofa because you know you don't get on or you're arguing or you're not touching each other and you're not kissing in front of your children or being affectionate, then that's not a great role model for your children, because what they think is a loving marriage and relationship actually isn't. And I would say that, you know, when my parents separated, my dad during the marriage is a totally different man to who he is now, and I'm stronger to I've got stronger relationship with him after divorcing my mom than before. I'd say so it's, yeah, you know, I think it's really important to address it with young children and to address it in a good way.
Tamsin Caine
Host
17:54
Yeah, absolutely, and it is as you said. It's about the breakdown of that relationship. It's not about the breakdown of the relationship that the parents have with their child or children, and it's really important to focus on that and it's something that we talk about a lot when I'm working with clients is, you know, keep the child front and center. Don't put them in the middle, like, don't, like, oh, mom said that, dad said that there, none of that nonsense. But keep them front and center of your thoughts and the decisions that you're making and how they will impact those future relationships.
18:30
But you're absolutely right in what you said about not staying together for the sake of the children, because you're showing your children all the time as a role model how a marriage and a family and a relationship looks. And if your example of that is, as you say, the rest of the sofa and going out separately all the time and not really spending any time together, that's not how you would ideally want them to think of a family. And if you separate, go and find someone else another loving family relationship. That view of a family is a much better view, even if it's mom and dad doing it separately, or mom and mom or dad and dad doing it separately.
19:13
That's still a better resolution, isn't it?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
19:16
Absolutely no. I completely agree with you and I think that it's also really important to be positive about the other parent once separated. And I think it's so easy to fall into the trap of making slight comments or comments that you think will go under the radar. But again it goes back to what we said earlier, that you're then indirectly insulting your child. But also, being a lawyer, unfortunately, I do see the other end of the spectrum where there is kind of conflict between parents.
19:54
But refreshingly, I was listening to a podcast and there was Nadine from Girls Allowed and she's got an ex-partner who's an NFL player and he spoke so positively about her as a parent because they're not together anymore. I was so happy and I thought what a great role model, what an absolutely great role model this guy is, because he's showing that you can still be so positive about the other parent even though you're not together, and how great for that child that their parents aren't together but each parent speaks so positively about the other. It must be such a lovely loving environment and I know it's hard and I've not gone through a divorce so I can imagine it's very hard, and especially if someone has an affair and you've got all those emotions caught up in it, but it's so important just to be positive about the other parent. It really, really is, because it can impact the child.
Tamsin Caine
Host
20:58
Yeah, absolutely, I think you'll spot on and I think that is absolutely right, because any negative feelings or the other thing that I've noticed is not being able to speak about the other parent to the parent perhaps that you're with. So I'd remember when we did that and you get shut down and I think that being able to have those happy family memories from your younger childhood if it's an older teen to be able to go, I'd remember when we all did that together those are lovely memories of the childhood but they don't want to forget and they should be encouraged to talk about as well, yeah, and I agree with you, and it's then maybe the child's mentioning that because that was a time of their life where they felt really supported by both parents and secure, and maybe mentioning that scenario is the child opening up to their parent to kind of say, oh, do you remember that that was really good.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
22:08
We're here, we're in this situation now, not necessarily saying that they're not happy, but that could be like a trigger comment by the child that I think parents need to perceive and be open to hearing. Because if, then, the response is shutting it down, that's shutting the child down, that's shutting the memory down, that's almost kind of asking them to forget their life before, which isn't what a child wants to do. And if they want to relive those happy moments, I think it's important that parents encourage them to.
Tamsin Caine
Host
22:41
Yeah, absolutely. It's massive positive, isn't it, that your child wants to have those conversations with you in any case, should be absolutely encouraged. I think that's it. That's a good thing. And back to the book. How would you suggest parents might introduce the books to their children? Is it something that you would anticipate older children reading themselves, or is it, when I say older children may not, or 17 may not not, 15 year olds probably? Or is it something that you would say is best read with a parent or teacher?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
23:19
So obviously it depends on the age, but the focus of the book age range is up to eight years old. So obviously you can be independent from I don't know because my twins can't read I think about six, you can kind of six, seven. You can start independently reading around that age With my twins of an evening, because I love story time. There's actually like a treasured time for me. I love sitting down in their bedroom and I get them each to choose a book and then we read them together and I have read them this book and my approach was to read the first book and then to read this after. So I think from a young age you don't have to be like.
23:58
This book is about separation. You can just bring it in, you can just read it and actually not even say anything about that book again, and then you could read it again and then maybe go through some of the questions at the end. But the questions at the end are what's quite key for this book Knowing about the story, but then the parents remembering the questions, and then maybe when you're in the car driving them to football practice or to ballet or going to see their grandparents, maybe ask some of those questions. Oh, do you remember that book we read? How do you think Jenny was feeling that day? Why was her tummy upset? How's your tummy? And that's the key with this book is to, once children have read the book, they will remember it, but it's the reinforcement after and then to ask questions with them. So, even if they're older and they read it on their own, it's for the parent to then raise those questions with the older child another time to kind of gauge their feelings, engage their reaction.
Tamsin Caine
Host
25:03
Yes, to still have it as a conversation rather than just here's a book, go on, read it, and I think it's a good book for where you have friends who are in a Lundquinn situation, who are friends who are going through divorce, because it helps them to understand what's going on, what's happening as well, which I think is really difficult to understand, and I think particularly with young kids that haven't come across it in so much.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
25:39
Absolutely. And one thing I want to do with my twins is just make sure that they're aware of kind of as much as possible. So when they were two they knew what a drag queen was and the queen asked her Really, yeah, they do, and they've been to drag home twice. So when in January, january before. So they absolutely know you what a drag queen is. They see a drag queen, they're not shocked. They love drag queens because I do as well.
26:09
So slight influence from me there H their own. But also things like being at nursery. Quinn and I love Diwali. So when they came home from nursery we would play Roma and Cita, probably like we're still playing it now. They ask for it. So I guess like part of like nurturing children and growing up is exposing them to lots of different things and educating them and children like focusing on their emotional intelligence can only be a good thing. And when one in two people get divorced, which is a sad statistic, it's likely that their friends, parents are gonna separate, that people around them are gonna separate, and if they're kind of nurtured from an early age to be accepted and to learn things about it, I can only see that as a good thing.
Tamsin Caine
Host
27:05
Absolutely, totally agree. That made me laugh about Diwali because my son, when he was at nursery 20 now he's not gonna forgive me for saying this, but anyway when he was at nursery came home and said I've decided that I want the Librecy Diwali from now on. Oh, not for you, right? I was like so you're not having Christmas anymore? He's like no, what Christmas as well. It's like an ad doesn't work like that. It was because Diwali had come. Fair yeah it does it does.
27:38
I'd like a bit of that. Yeah, no, mate, I'm at all.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
27:44
Pick the best bits out of all religions and just be celebrating all year.
Tamsin Caine
Host
27:48
I've got all the festivals going on. But it did make me laugh at the time. I was like, oh yeah, brilliant, nice. But I think you're absolutely right. I think the more they're exposed to and the more that they can understand things that other people might be dealing with and that everybody's got their own stuff going on and you don't have to think of it in those terms. But to kind of introduce those sorts of themes from me on Gage I think is fantastic and I very much enjoyed reading your book. So thank you.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
28:23
Oh, thank you.
Tamsin Caine
Host
28:25
For sending it across. So, coming to the end of our time together, is there anything that you'd like to add? And also, could you tell everybody where they can get hold of your book if they think it might be useful for themselves, their kids, their friends kids, et cetera?
Estella Newbold-Brown
Guest
28:43
Absolutely. So yes, you can get it on Amazon. It's just stocked on Amazon because it's self-published. So you can find it if you type in Eila and Quinn the Sunflowers and it should pop up as a yellow and green book with two Very cute children on it and two cute sunflowers and a dog. And my name is Estella Newbold Brown, so hopefully you can find it that way. But I would say the kind of key takeaway from this book and just from speaking with your children if you are separating is just to make sure that your children feel loved when you separate and you make sure that they know it is not their fault. I think if you forget everything we've discussed on this podcast today, just take away those two key things and if you kind of apply that in your parenting, then you are kind of looking after your children the best that you can if you separate.
Tamsin Caine
Host
29:47
What a lovely way to end it. And if you are interested in getting hold of a copy of Estella's book, the link is in the show notes I'm pointing downwards. If you're listening on the podcast, you may have a clue what I'm doing.
30:01
But, it's in the show notes. Please click on it. Please get hold of the copy, because it's absolutely beautiful book. And, Estella, thank you so much for joining me for this very special episode.
Estella Newbold-Brown
Thank you
Tamsin Caine
I hope you enjoyed the episode of the Smart Divorce podcast. If you would like to get in touch please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website www.smartdivorce.co.uk. Also if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review. That would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have Facebook group now. It's called 'Separation divorce and dissolution UK.' Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care!